CHRISTMAS EVIL (Holiday Horror Series)

00:42.26
mikechumpchange
Seasons greetings everybody and welcome to the pod and the pendulum. So normally we talk about horror franchises. But this month we're tackling holiday horror and we've got a really good one today we've made a list. We've checked it twice. We've definitely found out who's naughty and nice and we're out there carving up the wicked and throwing it in some sacks we are talking the 1980 early whoop try that one again. We're talking the 1980 Christmas set early slasher movie. The one that John Waters himself calls his favorite Thanksgiving in Christmas movie Christmas evil alternately known as you better watch out I'm your host Mike S Noonian and I am joined once again by my merry band. My i'm.

01:31.93
Brian Keiper
Yeah, how good.

01:33.62
mikechumpchange
Here we go I can talk I'm your host Mike Snoonian and I'm joined once again by my merry band of good sheer carolerss up first from the bodies of horror podcasts Mr. Cole Goel Nicole how are we doing.

01:46.24
Nic
Doing very well excited to talk about this wild. Wonderful Wonderful movie. No no, it was not I believe this one was rachel's.

01:55.74
mikechumpchange
Um, it's a good one I think this was your suggestion too. No.

02:02.75
mikechumpchange
Oh and she had to bow out the last moment. Okay, okay, well you get no credit then Nicole fair enough 0 credit feel free I you can steal. People's work.

02:03.54
Brian Keiper
Rachel mentioned that yeah and then I I said yeah, that's definitely I Second that 1

02:06.00
Nic
Ah, just yeah.

02:12.14
Nic
Um, yeah.

02:16.92
Nic
What can you do that would make me the a I of the pod in the pinch one.

02:17.17
Brian Keiper
Ah.

02:22.31
mikechumpchange
Stealing people why that would probably get you in the naughty book. But whatever I guess it would I guess it would also joining us from bloody disgusting and the movies for life podcast Mr. Brian Kuyper Brian how are we.

02:39.70
Brian Keiper
I am so excited I've got my Christmas evil coffee mug I've got my Christmas evil t-shirt on um, this is my second favorite Christmas movie period. My favorite Christmas horror movie I love this one to death.

02:44.54
mikechumpchange
Um, look at that.

02:56.16
Brian Keiper
And I am so excited to talk about it. Yeah.

02:58.24
mikechumpchange
Wow! All right? then? Well you know what? I guess I will go back to our typical question and I'll ask. Um, when did you first encounter this movie and what made you fall in love with it. Both of y'all.

03:12.83
Brian Keiper
You want me? Okay, all right.

03:13.51
Nic
Um, I'll let Brian go first? Yeah yeah.

03:14.78
mikechumpchange
Right? You're dressed up and you've got the coffee mug. So usually I say ladies first but like you elbow Nicole out of the way today and just like you talk about this.

03:20.34
Brian Keiper
Right.

03:25.52
Nic
Um.

03:26.48
Brian Keiper
Ah, well I think I saw this for the first time I was in college I was sort of staying in my parents' house I think for over Christmas and I turned on tcm it was really late at night and so it was like Tcm underground and this came on and I was like oh Christmas evil I i.

03:41.70
Nic
Um, nothing.

03:44.44
Brian Keiper
Think I might have heard of that one I and I expected it to be I was disappointed by it because I expected it to be silent night deadly night and it was not silent night deadly night and so I was like I don't think I get this movie but then you know over. Years I it the I can't remember when it came up again and I was like I really should watch that again and so I got the vinegar syndome syndrome blu rayy I put it on I was like oh wow, this has really got something going on and it's become a tradition I noticed. I haven't had a lot ah letterbox for that long I've logged this movie 6 times since since having letterboxed um I have watched it every year at least once since ah since I ah started sort of rediscovered it.

04:23.44
mikechumpchange
Wow.

04:31.80
mikechumpchange
V.

04:38.69
Brian Keiper
I think I was listening to a podcast and someone mentioned it as being a really kind of underrated you know Christmas horror movie and I took a look and again as like it just became instantly like 1 of my favorite movies I think I think the yeah.

04:53.46
mikechumpchange
Um, yeah.

04:57.20
Brian Keiper
It helps you know sort of the taxi driver parallels and things like that help for me because um I'm a big scorsese fan and ah taxi driver is it. It joggles for first or second place I enjoy watching good fellows most but taxi driver is just very very profound to me.

05:01.10
Nic
Um.

05:14.67
mikechumpchange
Event.

05:16.76
Brian Keiper
Um, so I I don't know I I I I I Just love this movie and just like I notice more I like it more every time I watch it.

05:20.21
mikechumpchange
Um, yeah.

05:24.87
mikechumpchange
You know the the other movie that struck me watching this for the show. It's like the depressed version of John Favreau's elf right? oh.

05:39.72
Brian Keiper
Ah, just watch that the other day ourselves. Yeah yeah, just someone who's that delusional. Yeah.

05:43.52
mikechumpchange
Just just like yeah just like the really sad version and probably how elf would actually play out in reality with maybe a little less stabbing although who knows in 2023

05:52.47
Brian Keiper
Right? right now for sure.

06:01.20
mikechumpchange
But it feels a lot like that as well. Nicole how about yourself.

06:04.69
Nic
I Also saw this when I was in college and I unlike a lot of people who are like oh I'm going in expecting silent night deadly night which was a movie that had. Without even seeing it traumatized me as a kid because I had seen the box art. Um and was like the fuck is this like San is going to kill me I don't want them coming to my place I don't want gifts like this is not for me. Um.

06:28.29
Brian Keiper
Right? yeah.

06:44.30
Nic
So um I actually am a huge fan of New Year's people. Um I think it is incredible and so I was like oh I wonder if this is going to you know if this is like before.

06:51.00
Brian Keiper
Um.

07:00.76
Nic
We get to new year's we're dipping our toes into Christmas evil um, and I yeah I I mean I think anyone who watches this movie with any kind of expectations kind of gets spun around um because it really is just chock full of.

07:19.83
Nic
Some really interesting character development A really rich and kind of interesting story that you don't see um in films like this one of the reasons I Really love holiday horror is that it takes something that is supposed to be very pure and sweet.

07:39.89
Nic
And good and full of happiness and cheer. Um, but there's also this very dark side. Um, and I like that we're exploring kind of all avenues of that in this film. So.

07:51.52
mikechumpchange
Yeah, it feels like the best holiday movies have a reminder of that even like you have the horror movies like gremlins is one of my favorite holiday horror movies and even that has some not just like Phoebe Kate's tremendous speech about.

07:52.90
Brian Keiper
Yeah.

08:02.83
Nic
Um.

08:03.85
Brian Keiper
Of sure.

08:11.32
mikechumpchange
Her dad breaking his neck trying to do a little Christmas cheer but like as you get older Billy I can't think of the main character's name um Zach Zach the actor's name is whatever that Billy's

08:27.77
Nic
Are.

08:29.93
mikechumpchange
Dad he goes from Yes, he goes for being like really comical look look at this guy and his pathetic inventions to like this guy's sad. It's just like what a sad existence. Um.

08:31.83
Brian Keiper
Hoyt Axton

08:42.26
Brian Keiper
Um.

08:45.20
mikechumpchange
Is to be away from your family on Christmas Eve because like you just have to be out there kind of like hitting the pavement and you can't make any of your dreams work. It's a wonderful life which is yeah.

08:54.81
Brian Keiper
Right? It's a wonderful life with that. My favorite Christmas movie and right the most depressing movie ever until the ending pretty much. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

09:00.70
mikechumpchange
Which we talked about last year in great detail who to the last ten minutes of it right? and you need that um a Christmas carol so much of that is steeped in even though the end of a Christmas Carol is ah. Joyous and uplifting. You're still left with a man who is probably in the last quarter of his life and he has so much to make up for but you look at like man that's a life wasted like there's so much that you'll never be able to make up for there's some sadness there. So.

09:36.41
Nic
yeah and I think also yeah I mean bringing up kind of just the story of a Christmas Carol and Scrooge. It's also about like I having to reflect on all of your mistakes your shortcomings and how you'll never.

09:50.30
mikechumpchange
Who.

09:55.97
Nic
Truly be able to atone for all of it all you can do is with whatever time you have left is try to do better which in and of itself is I guess an uplifting story but it's also like we're all going to be dead soon. So.

10:04.28
mikechumpchange
Yes.

10:12.80
mikechumpchange
Move them.

10:15.79
Nic
Just don't be an asshole today. Try not to be an asshole today. Yeah yeah.

10:21.35
mikechumpchange
Merry Christmas listeners. That's the message. We'll be back next week we're going to leave you with that note where yep we'll all be dead soon married you are.

10:21.56
Brian Keiper
It's good advice.

10:28.10
Nic
I write it in all my holiday cards. Yeah.

10:30.76
Brian Keiper
Um, yeah.

10:35.70
mikechumpchange
Merry Christmas we have 1 less holiday to get through before we're in the grave. Excellent yeah you so um, the other question I had for y'all because the big thing about this movie is is it's it's about like it's about, um.

10:39.28
Nic
Yeah, don't be an asshole. Thank you bye.

10:55.80
mikechumpchange
We try that again. I'm having some difficulty speaking here I don't know why today? Um so I wanted to ask before we talk about the movie since like so much of this centers on Harry and his mental illness after he catches.

11:08.74
Brian Keiper
6 Um.

11:14.52
mikechumpchange
His mom and his dad dressed as Santa Like in this really intimate moment I was curious like when but we all learned about the truth about jolly old Saint Nick in

11:26.61
Brian Keiper
No to.

11:28.48
mikechumpchange
Not only that did it affect the way that you looked at Christmas in experience Christmas and like the years after that.

11:37.94
Nic
The.

11:41.17
Brian Keiper
I think Nicole should go on this way, you've got you I'll let you go first on this one because you've got a nice ah some written down here and I don't I have to think about it.

11:50.82
Nic
Yeah, so actually mine was so I I don't remember exactly how old I was but I was pretty young. Um and it was Christmas Eve um like the afternoon.

12:00.66
mikechumpchange
Um.

12:08.40
Nic
Um, and we were I was helping my mom do some cleaning and we were doing laundry and I was putting some stuff away and I was in the closet and I saw tucked away some gifts and they hadn't been wrapped and they were specifically things that I had written down. For Santa like this. This was not supposed to be Intel for my mom. Um, and so I start walking out of the closet and my mom was like oh shit she's like well. You know sometimes Santa likes to give us visions of what he may leave us. Um, if we're good and I like no, that's not how it works absolutely not. Um I'm like you went and bought some stuff so this is all a lie. And I just want some cocoa now and let's get on with a charade.

13:05.93
mikechumpchange
And how did that impact you was that really hard were you like did it kind of like dampen the Christmas spirit.

13:17.46
Nic
No because I to me like I like Santa I just never really cared about santa ah, um, like I said I was kind of like freaked out.

13:26.10
mikechumpchange
Okay.

13:32.47
Nic
By the concept of just like some strange man. Um well that I also have I think I've talked about this maybe on an episode here but I used to have this reoccurring night terror. Um for like years upon years upon years of.

13:33.96
mikechumpchange
Um, because of silent night deadly night.

13:52.26
Nic
Um, people breaking into our house. Um and killing my mom and my sister and me trying to like get to the door in time to stop them and not being able to um and so I just had a lot of panic about like home invasion and I was like why do we do this.

13:55.16
mikechumpchange
Um.

14:11.69
Nic
Like this just seems silly. Um, so it wasn't about Santa Um I Obviously like the gifts are always nice, but um so it wasn't about Santa so it didn't take like that particular shine off but it just made me like.

14:12.13
mikechumpchange
Boom.

14:29.89
Nic
Disrespect um like not I shouldn't say disrespect but it just made me realize what a bad liar. My mom was because it's like you can't even try like come up with something good like Santa broke his leg and he's not going to be able to make it. So.

14:40.12
mikechumpchange
Um.

14:49.51
Nic
He like faxed me this was because this was before email. Um and she couldn't even muster that so this is why I'm also a bad liar I had no one to teach me.

14:53.92
mikechumpchange
Right? nope.

15:05.28
mikechumpchange
Your mom couldn't teach you how to lie by like how it's like it you lost respect for your mom. Um I Yeah I never.

15:13.66
Nic
Yeah, the ah parents are supposed to be good liars.

15:21.20
mikechumpchange
And look. We'll probably get I'll probably get like an angry message or 2 from this There are the parents out there like however like some parents like just straight up tell their kids like no, there's no santa like it's mom and dad like whatever and that's fine like if that's what you want to do like hey no judgment. But what I hate is when those same parents like won't play along with like other kids that are outside of their family. It's like I refuse to lie and it's like man like don't Rob other kids of that for. So yeah I just hate that like and or they're like you're lying. Um.

15:45.29
Brian Keiper
Oh sure. Yeah, ah.

15:52.53
Brian Keiper
Now I'm with you.

15:58.18
mikechumpchange
You're lying to your children. Ah so therefore you're a bad parent. It's like sometimes it's ok to have a little bit of magic have a little bit of you know that's part of like I don't know of any children aside from Harry in this movie that grew up super traumatized.

16:05.85
Brian Keiper
Absolutely.

16:17.43
mikechumpchange
Ah, thinking that Santa was real and then found out that he wasn't I know for me I found out about Sanda pretty late like I was actually a pretty late bloomer um, probably double digits in age like past the age or I should not have. Um, yeah, probably 23 ah like no so not not quite that old I probably like after my kid turned 5 and realized like she wasn't getting presents I'm like geez I thought you were good all year what happened and then someone pulled me aside and said you know you have to buy the present. No.

16:56.59
Nic
Okay.

16:57.21
mikechumpchange
Was probably like fifth or sixth grade and we were taking my sister to see the easter bunny and I just remember like looking at the easter bunny at the mall and like that's not a giant bunny like that's a dude in a suit like that's a dude in a big costume. And I looked at my mom and I'm like there's no Easter Bunny is there and she's like no and how have you not figured this out sooner and I'm like I don't know and then I'm like that probably means there's no santer isn't there. She's like no, there's no santa don't say anything to your sister I'm like okay and it kind of did. Dampen the holiday for me like once you realize it's your parents buying all the presents like it is it does I think to at a certain extent suck a bit of the magic out like he definitely comes back or came back when we had our daughter but even then like she wasn't the hugest like Santa person in the whole world. And then once she found out. There wasn't one. It's kind of like all right Christmas morning here's a bunch of stuff you add like we have to kind of like badger her for a list and she's like whatever like I'll get it to you when I get it to you I guess is good but you know, but.

18:06.00
Brian Keiper
For me, it was I the story of how I've learned about it didn't really isn't really that interesting I think I was just like oh talking about san or something like that. My mom just kind of sat me down and said. Okay so I'm going to just break this to you now. I don't even remember how old I was it was a little. No. It was definitely not that young it was it was it was probably older than I should have been. You know, kind of thing maybe 8 or something I don't remember exactly maybe it was younger and I don't know.

18:24.15
mikechumpchange
You were 3

18:31.88
mikechumpchange
Who.

18:41.18
Brian Keiper
But what is more interesting is how my kids found out. Um because we never told them we never we played along we play along to some extent to this day with the whole Santa idea but mostly as a joke to them because um, my oldest.

18:54.63
mikechumpchange
Me.

19:00.64
Brian Keiper
We were at church or something like that he pulled a book out and it actually said in this book like a children's book that they had set out that Santa isn't real and so but he was like he's so analytical he was like oh that makes sense. Um, that's fine and then and then he he had no issue with it. He was fine and then um, we but he made sure to keep it a secret from his younger siblings so he would wink at us when he was talking about santa.

19:25.40
mikechumpchange
Um.

19:33.28
mikechumpchange
Yeah, yeah, because he was like again a little adult you know he had a big secret that's kind of cool.

19:38.43
Brian Keiper
Like maybe santo. Yeah he yeah it was it actually kind of was he's and he had no problem with it. My um, my youngest it was probably he was probably 8 or 9 before he finally gave in completely and said.

19:53.60
mikechumpchange
Mm.

19:57.70
Brian Keiper
Yeah I don't think San is real is it was just got to like I'm pretty sure it's you guys. But I'm holding on to a little bit of it just in case you know? Yeah, so so so ah, both my middle child and my youngest were where we're kind of they they hedged their bets a little bit more than.

20:00.19
mikechumpchange
Um.

20:04.42
mikechumpchange
Yeah, yeah, you gotta hedge your bets a little bit. Right? Yeah yeah.

20:16.83
Brian Keiper
Then my oldest and it's just kind of funny. So even now we kind of tease them because we still literally tomorrow morning I mean my oldest is seventeen where we're taking them down to get their pictures with Santa Um and it's Ed.

20:28.58
mikechumpchange
I Love that? yeah.

20:32.80
Brian Keiper
It's just become a tradition and it's fun and and we have a good time. So um, you know it's and now my youngest favorite movie is violent night so hey um so he he believes in Santa but only you know the David Harbor santa that can.

20:42.60
mikechumpchange
M.

20:48.35
mikechumpchange
Only the ass kicking Santa Excellent so on a semi-related note where are we on alpha on the shelf because I feel like this is the thing that really divides people.

20:52.40
Brian Keiper
Yeah, the one that can blow things up and that's that's the Santa he loves so.

21:06.69
Brian Keiper
Ah, so.

21:07.50
mikechumpchange
Because like my mom got one for our daughter and my wife was like adamant that she did not want to put it up because she's like this is just teaching kids to you know like accept the police state in surveillance at a home bike this.

21:20.91
Nic
Um.

21:24.87
mikechumpchange
And I'm like it's a little out that's going to like sit on the toilet and draw on her and like have whiskey I'm like just whimsy you know and where are we on alf on the shelf. Um.

21:25.77
Brian Keiper
Yeah, so.

21:31.82
Brian Keiper
Yeah, we did elf on the shelf for a lot of years and they would like talk to it and stuff like that you know and um whisper what they wanted and things like that and so it was just a fun little thing and.

21:42.64
mikechumpchange
Who.

21:50.69
Brian Keiper
Um, now it was just like hey where's it going to be today you know and so I don't think it got put out this year but it it was last year even and none of them were were um, buying into it at that point they were just like where where is my wife going to hide the the elf.

21:54.41
mikechumpchange
Um.

21:57.96
mikechumpchange
Go.

22:03.40
mikechumpchange
Um, in ok I feel like you are far more appropriate than I am as well like you will like my elf.

22:09.15
Brian Keiper
At this point you know.

22:16.74
Brian Keiper
Ah, if I had more time I would be I would I would have that elf doing some crazy stuff. So.

22:20.91
mikechumpchange
No, our al had orgies you you know why wouldn't you do things like that you know because why not Nico you I mentioned elve on the shelf. Yeah.

22:33.78
Brian Keiper
We'd give our we'd give our elf like a ah white Russian or something like that like the dude you know? yeah.

22:40.31
mikechumpchange
Course Nicole what is your thoughts on elf on the shelf.

22:45.80
Nic
Um I would like to subscribe to your wife's newsletter. Um, um, because this sounds exactly right? Um, think it's a horrible um thing. No I mean.

22:49.26
mikechumpchange
Okay I think you and her would get along.

23:01.54
Nic
Just trust no home that I go into that has it because it's like what? Well what are you hiding like what are you hiding in. Why are you spying on me I think they're all spy cams. Um, so I.

23:04.66
mikechumpchange
Um, really.

23:16.11
mikechumpchange
Um.

23:18.50
Nic
Don't trust him and I will destroy them if I go into a home and I see it.

23:19.22
mikechumpchange
Have you done that like have you ever pulled the elf apart in front of the child going This is your enemy and then pop the elfs will you.

23:26.23
Nic
I haven't but Wow I to give me a minute and I'll make some plans I'll I'll find a home to invite myself into and be like.

23:34.46
mikechumpchange
Um I I just watched a video where a dude's uncle like these two little kids or uncle dressed as the grinch and like snuck in to like steal their presence while they were watching a movie. And 1 of in the in one of the kid the older of the 2 kids absolutely house the uncle to the point where the dad had to restrain the kid because he was just going right for the nuggets and like would not stop like absolutely went ballistic and it was actually it went from funny to scary because like this kid.

23:54.81
Nic
N.

24:02.11
Nic
Um, yeah.

24:04.19
Brian Keiper
Oh man.

24:10.70
mikechumpchange
Was like not having it and it was like supposed to be this fun like oh let's create a memory where like your uncle dressed like the grinch and like pretended to steal some gifts and the kid was like no it like was like he had prepared his whole life for this moment and just.

24:27.61
Nic
Um.

24:29.70
mikechumpchange
Absolutely went. You know how like like how many like 7 year old kids could I beat up. Not even 1 this uncle could not beat up one seven year old child. Ah it was amazing. All right Let's talk this movie so are we got a little distracted there. But I think these are fun. So Brian you talked and and Nicole you both talked about it I think that silent night deadly night like sucks up a lot of the attention when it comes to the killer Santa Claus movies but this is a lot more going for it like despite its shoestring budget and its bare bones production.

24:58.69
Nic
Are.

25:01.30
Brian Keiper
And yeah.

25:07.75
mikechumpchange
Thematically like it's a lot richer movie. There's a lot more going on under the surface. It's this really wonderful character study and I just think it's like a lot more unnerving than silent night deadly night. Don't we.

25:20.10
Brian Keiper
Oh definitely I Actually don't like the first silent night deadly night very much at all I think it's It's so mean spirited and it's just ah it it.

25:24.79
mikechumpchange
Move.

25:32.90
Brian Keiper
It's really a rough movie I actually love part two I know I'm in the minority because part 2 is just so nuts it is. it's it's bad it's but it's so inner. But it's so entertaining I I just can't get enough of.

25:34.82
mikechumpchange
Wow.

25:43.27
mikechumpchange
It's horrible. Is it.

25:48.35
Brian Keiper
I I can't and I cannot get enough of all the ibrow acting in that movie and you know all the garbage day and all that all that I I have so much fun with part two I'm not going to lie and then actually I kind of like 4 and 5 to 3 hree's ok um but um, yeah I i.

25:50.97
mikechumpchange
V.

26:08.26
Brian Keiper
Kind of don't like the first movie.

26:12.40
Nic
I I like the first one just fine. Um, but I I don't know I've I always just kind of felt like it was a default like it's a horror movie set. Christmas and there wasn't a ton at the time like we have now we have lots more holiday horror to choose from and so I I just always like to me it I don't know it certainly would never make like a list of. Pop 5 for me.

26:49.19
mikechumpchange
No I remember the hubbub of silent night deadly night when it came out Lex I remember being a kid and remember all of like the spectacle and protest and I feel like this movie in some ways is a lot more.

26:49.83
Brian Keiper
Now? Sure yeah.

27:07.43
mikechumpchange
Damaging to the Santa brand in some ways and a lot more like if kids knew about this movie like yeah silent night deadly night has a lot more like explicit violence and a lot more explicit sexuality and sexual violence going on which you know if you're a little kid like.

27:23.70
Brian Keiper
Um, yeah.

27:25.60
mikechumpchange
That would be bad to probably see Santa doing some of those things but in terms of like how like how earnest harry portrays Santa in here and just like how he's not It's not played as a joke. It's played like very straight that like to me. That is so much more scary in some ways and so much more sad like there's a lot more pathos here that um, if they were able to get some of that sweet suite kind of like protest and marketing behind it like this would have become like a lot better known right away.

27:46.28
Nic
And.

28:03.81
Brian Keiper
Um, yeah.

28:03.89
mikechumpchange
Because it would have been just like much more notorious like this really it really like found its legs like after like John Waters started the talk abundance and I show this to my friends every year and then you know it found its way in like home video and Dvd you know years take decades after its release.

28:22.10
Brian Keiper
Yeah, yeah I remember it just kind of being lost to time for a long time. You know showing up on something like um Tcm underground was sort of a boon to it as well. You know, um, because yeah, and.

28:36.99
Nic
Um.

28:39.96
Brian Keiper
You know like silinide deadly night. It got pulled from theaters. Everyone talks about that. It's like well it had already made its money back. So no harm, no foul and so and then it made a killing no pun intended actually on home videos and so that's when you ended up with 700 sequels you know

28:46.56
mikechumpchange
Yeah.

28:59.31
Brian Keiper
But I yeah that it's it's fine. Um, but this movie I think you know Brandon Magart is a big piece of that too as you know Fiona Apple's dad as as ah Harry Stan

29:13.27
mikechumpchange
Yeah.

29:18.52
Brian Keiper
Saddling is is really great in this movie and it's sort of sort of a shame. He didn't get to do other things you know and really stretch his wings and show up in other movies. Um.

29:30.59
mikechumpchange
The biggest thing I could find for him like looking through his credits because he was one of those seventy s and eighty s like that guys who appeared in like 40 things over the.

29:39.15
Brian Keiper
Sure.

29:44.66
mikechumpchange
Course of like 10 years like every tv show every movie did like the world according to garp and he would be like seventh down on the bill but he worked steady. He did a show called brothers which ran for like 120 episodes in the mid 80 s which I've never heard of.

29:50.61
Brian Keiper
Sure Yeah, which is great.

30:03.87
mikechumpchange
And ah I looked it up and apparently it was about 2 older brothers and he was one of them that then they're both conservative discovered that they're like the youngest brother has come out as like an openly gay man in the 80 s. And they wind up being like supportive of him and try to help him like kind of navigate the world after that and I have like never heard of this show. It ran apparently for like one hundred and almost one hundred and twenty episodes and it's the.

30:27.58
Brian Keiper
I've never heard of that either. Wow.

30:35.53
mikechumpchange
Closest thing to like a starring role he ever has where he plays like the second brother of the 3 of the 3 like the or the third brother of the three so he's one of the 3 main stars of it and it's this like lost to history like.

30:38.56
Brian Keiper
Ah, interesting.

30:51.66
mikechumpchange
Especially for the mid 80 s like that's a fairly not even fairly. That's a very progressive concept like right in the middle of the height of the aids epidemic and the regan years like to have that on for what would be about 5 or 6 seasons that's kind of incredible.

30:56.25
Brian Keiper
Yeah, it is.

31:06.39
Brian Keiper
Yeah, that is Wow I news to me? Interesting. Yeah.

31:12.28
mikechumpchange
Yep.

31:14.38
Nic
Yeah I think he was also pretty big in doing a lot of theater work. Um, which is how he met Fiona's mom because Fiona's mom was a singer. Um, and so ah, yeah, it.

31:17.27
mikechumpchange
M.

31:30.79
Nic
He's really incredible and is such a key part to making I think all of these like interesting bits and pieces of this film really pay off and work because I think without him kind of giving. Performance that he does I think it would just be strange. Um, and I think that some of the commentary that Sarah wouldn't kind of come through and so yeah I his performance is really special.

32:04.32
mikechumpchange
Yeah, yeah.

32:07.70
Brian Keiper
It's so sincere. It's fully committed. It's really a spectacular performance especially for like you mentioned a movie that I mean it's flawed you can see you know the that it's you know, not real snow on the ground. It's like. You know Cotton batting and all kinds of things that there are limitations of the budget show we say but um, that central performance especially um and a lot of the supporting performances just really elevate the film as a whole.

32:37.90
mikechumpchange
Um, yeah, it. It's structured a lot like John Carpenter's Halloween in that you have this inciting incident at the start which we'll talk about and then the last.

32:47.67
Brian Keiper
Sure.

32:53.13
mikechumpchange
30 minutes you get to the meat and potatoes of like a slasher movie. You know once you get to the once you get to the incident outside the church. That's when like the horror movie elements really pick up in earnest. But even then there's still a lot of character development.

33:05.80
Nic
And.

33:08.40
Brian Keiper
Yeah, there's a lot of back and forth between Horrific violence and sort of like these moments of pleasantness. It's very interesting how it's structured.

33:12.32
mikechumpchange
Yeah, um.

33:15.41
mikechumpchange
But what you in Carpenter's Halloween like in between that there's like this massive stretch where you get to know Laurie and her friends and like not a lot happens like it's just the presence of Michael is there and there's a lot of tension and buildup in here.

33:27.21
Brian Keiper
Um.

33:35.26
mikechumpchange
You have that as well. But except except instead of getting to know the victims you're getting to know the killer'd almost be like well what if we follow Michael around in in um, smithsfield grove like what if we just follow him around there the whole time.

33:43.34
Nic
Are moving.

33:52.99
mikechumpchange
As opposed to following Lori around what if we get to know him like here you get to know Harry and you get to know why he is the way that he is and you're getting to know him you don't really get to know the victims at all, but structurally it's very similar and pacing-wise it's really similar to carpenter's movie and I think it really works because of that. If this was just an out and out you wake up and like Harry is crazy and like he wakes up on Christmas Eve and decides. Everybody's been naughty and I'm going to start punishing people like we're probably not remembering this movie too fondly, but having that close to like 45 minutes to an hour

34:27.14
Brian Keiper
Um.

34:31.23
mikechumpchange
Where you see him and you're like he really feels off but you also feel for him and you feel how lonely he is it really works.

34:42.73
Brian Keiper
Um, yeah.

34:45.35
Nic
I think one of the things I really like about how this film I don't know if it necessarily speaks to to anything related to the structure because I think you're exactly right? Um, comparing it to Halloween but. Ah, maybe it's ah more of a tomal thing but I really really like that this film really has this unique and profound balance of getting us into the mind of Harry and then just giving us these glimpses from.

35:11.37
mikechumpchange
Of you.

35:17.79
Nic
The outsider perspective or reality to be like no something is really off and that's why like you know the fake snow and and certain elements of this still work because this is a constructed reality that he's kind of living in and we see.

35:27.83
Brian Keiper
Right? Ah, right? yeah.

35:33.59
mikechumpchange
Yeah.

35:36.76
Nic
Both sides we see you know, kind of this full um, kind of sequences of of him really living in that space and then we also get to see these little snippets of reality to be like no this is actually what's happening and it's not great.

35:55.30
mikechumpchange
Um, do you speaking of that like opening sequence. Um, where do you feel? How do you feel that magical realism works like I think you get that even from like jump street. Knowing that at a very young age like Harry is touched because you see he and his family like disappear from the steps like they don't go up the steps they they snap out of existence and when his father.

36:18.40
Brian Keiper
Right.

36:26.14
mikechumpchange
Goes up and we're assuming it's his father correct I mean I think that's the assumption We're supposed to make when his father disappears up the Chimney He doesn't like come in and out the front door like he comes down the chimney and then he like magically flies up the Chimney again which we know can't happen.

36:27.45
Brian Keiper
Um, yeah.

36:31.14
Nic
Um.

36:43.71
mikechumpchange
How do we think that works in terms of like clueing us in like okay something is clearly not right here with this young boy. Yeah.

36:51.27
Brian Keiper
We know we have an unreliable narrator and so I think without this beginning working for you. The ending won't work for you because ah if you can buy into what's happening here. You'll.

36:58.17
mikechumpchange
Yeah, good point.

37:08.48
Brian Keiper
Go along for the ride at the crazy end. Um, and I also think there's something interesting that goes on here is we make an assumption I think as viewers while we're watching this the least. The first time I assume that. Harry sort of goes a little nuts because oh yeah, it is his father. It's you know that's sort of the assumption. But when you get to the end you sort of realize and not entirely he what bothered him more was that his. Little brother Phil who's you know a couple years younger than him was like that's definitely daddy come on. You know this come on. It's like and he was He's so upset that his little brother doesn't believe in Santa Claus that is really what makes him want to.

37:53.70
mikechumpchange
Room.

38:02.19
mikechumpchange
Um.

38:05.71
Brian Keiper
Become Santa and prove to his little brother that Santa is real. Um, it's not so much necessarily that he saw you know he entirely at least there's there's It's just a really um, interesting approach I think.

38:05.77
mikechumpchange
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

38:24.93
Brian Keiper
That is um, it's hard to describe to me I have trouble sort of quantifying exactly how to how to put it out there. But um, it's ah it's I I don't think so much of the time it would be like all right? this. He saw you know like like in silent night dead Night. He Sees Santa someone dressed as Santa you know, kill his parents and you know assault his mother and so he snaps and goes crazy and that's I don't really feel that way here.

38:59.53
mikechumpchange
V.

39:01.66
Brian Keiper
You know it's it's because it seems like it would put him off from santa entirely. But instead it draws him to wanting to be Santa. It's um I don't know it's fascinating I mean and I'm not a mental health professional so I wouldn't know how to describe any of.

39:10.23
mikechumpchange
Yeah.

39:20.48
Brian Keiper
These things in those terms either.

39:21.94
mikechumpchange
I feel what it does is it displaces the burden of responsibility to where Phil has to become his brother's keeper at a really young age and you see that at the end of this movie where.

39:32.45
Brian Keiper
Yeah, that's right, he does.

39:39.99
mikechumpchange
Like Phil his kind of like he obviously loves his brother like there's a part of him that loves and cares for him but he's also kind of had it like from the age of 6 years old. He's had to be the one to kind of like rein Harry back in and put up with harry.

39:56.15
Nic
Are you.

39:56.54
mikechumpchange
The shenanigans and like that's a lot to put up with at a really young age and then you get into adulthood and you know Phil kind of wants to go out and start his own family and take care of his own children and you see Phil has two kids and it's not quite as pronounced. Like it's definitely not as explicit as it is with like Harry and Phil but you do get the idea that there's a little bit of that with like his own 2 children and one of them is like more on the hey this is all magic and real and the other one hews a little bit closer to like. Phil and his own point of view and I think there's a little bit of that there and I in it without it being like beaten over the head but I found like that and we'll talk a bit more about that relationship at the end of the movie I found that really nice in the beginning where like the 6 year old kid is like you're right like come.

40:37.11
Brian Keiper
Yeah.

40:51.83
mikechumpchange
On man like it's dad which is still really sweet. You know like my dad had a Christmas tradition where he read a Christmas carol to us every year

40:52.40
Brian Keiper
Right? Yeah, and yeah, yeah, yeah I agree.

41:06.77
mikechumpchange
Which was like his tradition and I love families that have this like thing every christmas they do and like if this was something like oh a kit people talk about my dad or my grandpa my uncle used to dress as Santa and give us presents like that's a really nice warm memory but in Harry's mind

41:20.76
Nic
Um, um.

41:25.71
Brian Keiper
Right.

41:26.50
mikechumpchange
This is a lie like my dad lied to us. He robbed us of that magic and knows this is not the real Santa and therefore I have to take over this role I find that fascinating.

41:38.79
Nic
1 of the things that the the more that you or the more that I have watched this you really appreciate just what a setup this opening scene is for the character of Harry and.

41:52.97
mikechumpchange
Boom.

41:58.28
Nic
The complete journey that he takes because we're also doing I think with this element of isolation which you touched on earlier because he's really like he does view things through this very kind of magical lens and he's upset. That other people don't see it that way as well. Um, and wants people to kind of come over to his side because he's by himself over here. Um, you know his brother is like well yeah, that's dad. Not like oh Christmas is ruined um or being scandalized in any kind of way that we've already talked about it's just like wow now I'm all alone. There's no one else for me to kind of share in this magical bit with so.

42:53.66
mikechumpchange
Um.

42:56.90
Nic
Um, and that's why I think you see like the you know that plays so well into just how lonely he seems isolated how distant um he kind of is with people and and kind of putting up this wall because. We see him when it jumps to present day. He's still very much as an adult. Um in this magical world. He's wearing like little Santa Pjs um and has a little um little carousel thing on his.

43:26.37
mikechumpchange
Um, yeah.

43:33.79
Nic
Bedstand to like always keep him in that spirit.

43:36.44
mikechumpchange
He has the countdown to how many days till Christmas where it's like twenty eight days until so it's not even quite thanksgiving yet and he's already.

43:40.40
Nic
Um, yeah.

43:42.38
Brian Keiper
Ah.

43:47.85
Brian Keiper
Well actually in the first shot. The first time we seen it's fifty. 5 days till Christmas. Yeah I I noted that because I went back to an article I wrote on this piece on this film and and is ah and and I saw that fifty five days till Christmas it's it's it's just makes you go? wow.

43:50.90
mikechumpchange
Wow. Okay.

43:52.99
Nic
Um, yeah.

44:03.48
mikechumpchange
Um, he's pushing it and you know and there's something where like because this is set in 1980 and there's no online community like if this was set in modern times like Harry could hop online and there are people like.

44:06.20
Brian Keiper
He's really yeah, he is He is.

44:22.31
mikechumpchange
He could join the santa community right? and there's like actually a whole community of people like Mick Foley from the Wwe Wwe is one of those persons that like would go to Santa Conventions and dress like Santa and so he would have he would be able to much easier like find his people but here um, he's kind of.

44:22.53
Brian Keiper
Oh.

44:23.00
Nic
Um, yeah.

44:41.51
mikechumpchange
All alone and Nicole I really like what you said there about like well he can't share this with his brother. His brother is like oh it's dad and now all the magic is gone for Harry and it's not like it's a bad thing for for a Phil It's just like no which is like that's really cool, but it's not magic. And this movie is very much like a world without magic and you get into Harry as an adult and you see him at his job and he's really become Santa Claus like he is working at a toy factory called jolly dream and you see him like he's the supervisor. He's the foreman he's at his desk.

45:09.10
Nic
Yeah.

45:20.44
mikechumpchange
Right? Behind him is this giant Santa Claus and you couldn't be any more explicit of like what they're going for there for an image and you contrast like the joy of this image of good old Saint Nick with this like drab shirt and tie gray office.

45:24.54
Brian Keiper
Um, yep.

45:40.80
mikechumpchange
No decorations besides that and instead of like again, it's like the reverse elf instead of getting these Joyous like singalongs and songs and everyone's happy and we're making toys for children. You get like the union workers that are just working the line.

45:47.86
Nic
Um.

45:58.94
mikechumpchange
Nap and plastic bits in place on an assembly line. It's 8 hours of Drudgery Bell rings next group comes in all of them. Yeah.

46:05.23
Nic
Um, yeah.

46:06.49
Brian Keiper
And Harry's just pushing paper. He's not doing anything. Um, you know he's sort of except when he's like coerced by 1 of his workers to step into his shift you know and and snap the toys together.

46:19.85
mikechumpchange
Yeah, yeah.

46:24.86
Brian Keiper
He can't even stand the toys they're making because they're so cheap and Junkie Um, it's ah and he's also but I also find it interesting. He's been. He's functional enough that he's been that he's good at his job. Apparently.

46:38.40
mikechumpchange
Even.

46:38.67
Nic
Um, yeah.

46:40.64
Brian Keiper
You know he's good enough to get a promotion to be a supervisor to um to sort of keep in good standing with the company. So I I think that to me that differentiates him from Travis Bickle I mean I know Bickle is like he's a good cab driver. But I mean you know he that's because he'll drive anybody right.

46:56.93
mikechumpchange
Um, doubt.

47:00.55
Brian Keiper
Um, whereas here I I don't know I I feel Harry is he's he's so passionate about fulfilling this role that he's going to be good at it anyway, it's interesting element.

47:15.79
Nic
Yeah, and I also I mean to to go back to what you were mentioning like when you have movies like elf. Um, that have a similar tone of like someone kind of displaced right? um. Someone that is very much in 1 kind of scope of reality or trying to get people to come over to one side elf is the happy experience of that and where it's like everyone can experience joy and isn't this lovely and this is ah this is just like a.

47:42.29
mikechumpchange
Um.

47:50.94
Nic
Whole shower of like no no, you do holidays are hard holidays aren't Perfect. Holidays aren't like necessarily these completely magical things. Um, there's there's other elements to it and I mean even talking about. The the church um moments we get um just a ah little bit of ah some time in the church seeing people ah in the pews and what's funny is that. These are people who are basically like nodding off or just completely Disengaged. So You're not even getting that connection of like that magical bit of the holidays right? because if it's not about Santa It's about the religious components of the holiday for folks and there's not even that. Um.

48:32.33
mikechumpchange
Um.

48:41.95
mikechumpchange
Awesome.

48:49.00
Nic
People are like bored like this is just a routine that they do and they come out and they're like all right now. Let's go grab a drink and do whatever. Um, so I I Really like that it's um.

48:55.92
mikechumpchange
Now.

49:05.91
Nic
I Mean there's also kind of like this consumerism ah kind of commentary going on as well. Um, so I I don't know it's just it's so fun to kind of like pluck. All of these little.

49:09.66
Brian Keiper
Um.

49:21.99
mikechumpchange
Yep, yeah because there is so much more going on here. You're right? It's not just like this isn't just a guy dresses up like Santa and just start indiscriminately start skilling people like there's a motive behind it. There's a reason and it's exploring.

49:22.33
Nic
Pieces out each time you watch it.

49:32.65
Nic
Um, yeah.

49:39.83
mikechumpchange
Those motives and it makes you actually at the end of the movie when he's running away from the mob like you feel for him. You actually part of me wants him to get away. It's like yeah I don't I feel like I don't want these people to get their hands on him like he needs to pay for what he's done. But and I don't want this ruthless mob to get their hands on him and do him like indiscriminate harm.

50:04.11
Nic
Yeah, well, it's it's the Frankenstein thing. It's like you don't like he's misunderstood. Um he he doesn't want to hurt people. Um, necessarily I mean.

50:08.49
Brian Keiper
Um, yeah.

50:20.78
Nic
Kind of if if you are real fucked up. He you will come at yeah but like it's like his connection with kids even the naughty kids He understands that they that they are still capable of seeing that magic of connecting to the magic of the holiday. Um, and so like he I.

50:25.44
mikechumpchange
Um.

50:40.70
Nic
I in in just watching it. Um, last night for this record I kept thinking about trick or tree and Sam and how it's like he's a representation of like all the good things that we're supposed to think about for the holidays and if you're not.

50:52.40
mikechumpchange
Um.

50:59.53
Nic
Towing the line if you're not seeing things through that lens if you're not holding close to the purity and the innocence and the joy of the holidays he's going to put you in check.

51:10.76
Brian Keiper
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

51:10.79
mikechumpchange
That's a really good comparison I really like that can we talk about the Travis Spckleness and the taxi driver comparisons because they. Really stood out on my watch of here and I'm like this reminds me a lot of taxi driver and I'm like there's no way I'm the first person to ever have that thought and lo and behold. There's like a dozen articles online that talk about that thing specifically so I was like all happy and then I'm like yeah I have never had an original thought.

51:36.95
Nic
Um.

51:39.93
Brian Keiper
Yeah, well one of those articles dozens of articles was written by me so house.

51:44.99
mikechumpchange
Um, excellent, so talk about that Brian can you talk about the comparison of like Bickle talking about the rain that would wash like the scum and the junkies way versus the tune that Harry's talking about.

51:55.93
Brian Keiper
Sure Well I think that you know there are lots of comparisons I mean one of them is they both have these sort of isolating jobs. You know that you know just.

52:11.98
mikechumpchange
V.

52:15.20
Brian Keiper
Put them by themselves. Occasionally they go around among the other workers but they just do not know how to interact with people I think in Harry's case there's a sense that he is he. Desires normalcy I think Travis does too. That's why he goes and tries to um, create a relationship with Betsy um have a connection with Betsy and then you have ah Harry you know, sneaking around outside his brother's house. Watching him with his wife and children and just being like there's a there's a desire for that to be him as well. Um, he's got this He's got this sort of so they both have this savior complex.

52:59.27
mikechumpchange
Who.

53:10.63
Brian Keiper
Um, like in Travis' ' case he's going to save Iris you know Jodie Foster's character from you know the life that she's been forced into by you know, sports and and the others. Um, and um.

53:28.70
Brian Keiper
Harry's going to protect the innocence of the children you know like when he confronts the the children sort of gathered around him at the ending and the adults just sort of ready to attack him. You know with the knife the famous shot of him holding the switch blade all of that you know. The the little and he's saying you know they they believe in me, they yeah they ah have but you know the tune the tune that he's going to I kind of wonder if that tune is Santa Claus is coming to town because you know it's the.

54:01.88
mikechumpchange
Um.

54:05.10
Brian Keiper
It's the very much the dichotomy of the good and bad. You know, um he has sort of this. You know the good will be rewarded and the bad will be punished I will avenge. Um, and yeah.

54:11.57
mikechumpchange
Right.

54:20.69
mikechumpchange
Right? I mean the first line of Santa Claus is coming to town as a warning you better, watch out right? which is the original name of this movie but it's a warning. It's it's not joyous. It's not uplifting. It's telling you like mine your p's and qs.

54:23.20
Brian Keiper
So you better watch out. Yeah, which was the original title. Yeah.

54:27.57
Nic
Um.

54:36.62
Brian Keiper
Yeah.

54:39.00
mikechumpchange
Which is something you see here with him which plays very different I think now if we talked about alpha on the shelf in this surveill and Harry the original el on the shelf um, spying on all of these children and not only spying.

54:47.32
Brian Keiper
Um, yeah.

54:57.50
mikechumpchange
But keeping like a detailed record of all of their good acts in their misdeeds and which I think plays your comic effect especially as you start to read them and there is yeah Mars Garcy any.

55:05.81
Brian Keiper
Um, yeah.

55:10.60
Brian Keiper
Moss Garcia yeah

55:14.24
mikechumpchange
Watching Harry Run to get the book is also very comical. Ah impure thoughts kicks kicks garbage cans ah impure thoughts moscarcia rules man moscarcia.

55:23.00
Nic
Um, yeah.

55:26.30
Brian Keiper
He's so funny. He's so funny I want a your subscription to play ah to Pethouse magazine. It's like mass garcia.

55:31.86
mikechumpchange
Kid really just kind love it. Um, but it's not just with the kids and the tune. He also turns that judgment towards other adults like you see at the Christmas party.

55:42.43
Brian Keiper
Absolutely.

55:47.97
mikechumpchange
And he's Harry's accepted by his bosses like you just talked about Brian about how he's like good enough to be promoted and it's not a joke like his bosses like remind him like hey just to remind you like you're an our side of ledger now like you're not a union worker anymore like you're actually management. So you got to start thinking like us and they want to run ideas by him. They're like what do you think of this idea and Harry has a really good point. He's like well how many of these like when they're like we're going to donate sick toys to this hospital. Um.

56:06.52
Brian Keiper
It's right.

56:23.99
mikechumpchange
And like well how many sick kids are going to get the toys is anyone going to be left out and like why are you asking our workers who make pennies on the dollar compared to executives. Why are you asking them to donate their own wages to give out to give. More of these toys to these kids that they're already making like why would you do that when like you can when you were like flying out to go to these crazy vacations and have all these bonuses and drive fancy cars like why aren't you giving this money and he calls them out and he calls his boss stupid.

56:55.17
Nic
Um, yeah, um.

57:01.88
mikechumpchange
Which I really love. He's like you're not even smart enough to know the tune but you to this new guy. You know the tune you know what you're doing. You're the worst of all and I kind of love that like Harry like putting them in his ledger of people that like need to be looked at.

57:02.90
Brian Keiper
Um, yeah.

57:16.70
Nic
Well I think that that's though the the game where it's you're you're making sure that the kids are doing what they're supposed to be doing but where does that come from. It's got to come from the parents right? The parents have to teach the lessons.

57:19.63
mikechumpchange
Who.

57:34.88
Nic
And it's the adults in the world that have to kind of keep the magic ah going and keep everything in tow and when he sees the adults failing that he can't necessarily blame the kids like he's not going to go and like slice a kid's throat because that's the failing on the parent.

57:49.80
Brian Keiper
No.

57:49.12
mikechumpchange
Right.

57:54.70
Nic
And that's the failing of the adults around them and that when we get to that alley scene which is I don't even know what that scene is because I feel like it's almost like a fever dream of his um it it. He's like well I have to be like. They love me because I am protecting them I am preserving.

58:17.14
Brian Keiper
That's right I'm telling them what's right and wrong. They need someone to tell him that and yeah, that's one of the things he says.

58:21.65
Nic
And so I think he's calling out adults and including those that he works with to be like you guys aren't you guys are not living the spirit and so I'm I will go Sam on you.

58:33.20
mikechumpchange
Move.

58:36.64
Brian Keiper
And that's even the way he doles out punishment too because like muscarcia drives him nuts but he gives him what a big bag of dirt right? That's what he leaves for him you know and then but he smashes the executive skull with a with a hatchet.

58:47.15
Nic
Yep.

58:55.76
mikechumpchange
For you.

58:56.51
Brian Keiper
Outside the church right? Um, so there's the the approach to ah to adults and children is is is different. So.

58:58.47
Nic
Um, and.

59:06.58
mikechumpchange
No.

59:10.14
Nic
He is though really super creepy with the little girl and I'm drawing a blink on her name. Ah, ah yeah, and it's like she's so darling and it's like.

59:15.66
Brian Keiper
Oh yeah, he has a little picture of her at everything. It's very disturbing. Yeah, it's very disturbing.

59:26.24
mikechumpchange
Do you think that plays as creepy in 1980 I think it's susy I think it's Susie love it. Do you think that plays is creepy in 1980 or do you I think it play I think knowing what we know now about predators.

59:27.57
Nic
Ah.

59:32.83
Brian Keiper
Yes, it's Susie. Yes.

59:33.61
Nic
Um, yeah, it's Suzy.

59:42.69
Nic
Um, yeah.

59:44.86
Brian Keiper
Aha.

59:45.42
mikechumpchange
I think that plays a lot creepier now. Um than it probably did back in 1980 but yeah I think the musical cues in particular, add that extra layer of ick to it that I don't know if was intended.

59:52.55
Nic
Here.

59:54.30
Brian Keiper
Are. I Think it was supposed to play creepy. Yeah.

59:59.60
Nic
Well and he well and he's like you yeah because he's like you you look so beautiful and she stands up and Curt sees for him and it's like I um was born.

01:00:04.70
mikechumpchange
Move.

01:00:15.46
Nic
And 81 and so I grew up kind of in an era where there was this huge switch to you know kids can be outside by themselves and roam the streets and do whatever they want versus oh my god stranger danger all day. Yep and so.

01:00:24.28
mikechumpchange
Moving.

01:00:27.87
Brian Keiper
Stranger Danger yet.

01:00:29.19
mikechumpchange
Yeah, we're that last generation that did that.

01:00:35.43
Nic
I Got kind of both in store when I was very young. It was like yeah if you want to walk up ah the road. Um, and I lived in a very very very very rural area. So um, a completely different experience from those that were probably living in more ah kind of. Populated areas. But I Ah yeah, like you're just getting to like this the kid on the Milkbox Era. Um So I I don't know I think it's supposed to be creepy because it just.

01:01:06.65
Brian Keiper
Ah.

01:01:13.85
Nic
It lingers with her like he's very fixated on her and like but I think that probably from his perspective. It's just that she's the example right? like she's a good kid and she's very sweet and kind and like.

01:01:25.90
mikechumpchange
You.

01:01:33.20
Nic
This is this is the example this is the the way that all kids should be and I'm going to measure garcia up against her and he's always going to fail short. Um, so I.

01:01:45.47
mikechumpchange
Help.

01:01:49.87
Nic
I Don't think that he has creepy intentions with her I think that he's looking at it as ah, more like she's very, she's very cute and sweet and she's going to be my shining example. Everyone's going to be up against her.

01:02:07.72
mikechumpchange
And it is very gendered. It is very this is like the gendered expectations of what like a perfect little girl would act like so there is that part of it I think that definitely doesn't age very well. Um.

01:02:09.42
Nic
Yeah.

01:02:23.66
Nic
Because now you could have a girl like going through a penthouse and um.

01:02:27.71
mikechumpchange
Um, which would be amazing which would be absolutely fantastic. Um, you go.

01:02:32.53
Nic
He I'm just glad I gave up on Santa When I did he? yes.

01:02:39.26
Brian Keiper
Um, yeah, yeah.

01:02:41.60
mikechumpchange
When you found you were actually going through the closet looking for mom's penthouses I mean look I'll never forget when when Madonna in Vanessa Williams not on the same issue like they leaked Vanessa Williams ' nude photos like miss America I think.

01:02:59.43
Nic
Um, yeah.

01:02:59.94
mikechumpchange
Time and then Madonna had done like penthouse or did they leak hers too I don't remember I think they maybe this was like before she was a huge pop star and then they came out after but like my dad had those like then my dad was not a guide that there's the I found those issues like in a closet.

01:03:02.37
Brian Keiper
Or probably play. But yeah, yeah I don't know.

01:03:19.27
mikechumpchange
Next to the garage like what an awakening like and those are the only things that he only playboys he ever bought to my knowledge and trust me I looked after finding those listeners I searched high and low in the house. Um.

01:03:31.32
Nic
Um, we know help.

01:03:32.71
Brian Keiper
This yeah.

01:03:36.86
mikechumpchange
So you could you know? So Nicole you were looking for mom's playboys. Basically what was you gets okay to him. it's okay It's fine it's all good. Um, so listeners of a certain age back in the day we did not have.

01:03:39.21
Nic
I Was that was.

01:03:53.11
mikechumpchange
Pornography at our fingertips and our phones at any moment you had to actually go and you'd go to the woods. You'd go into the woods and you would find boxes in these boxes contain magazines that would be wet and sticky and have ah all right moving on.

01:04:01.18
Nic
Um, houses with and hello.

01:04:10.91
Brian Keiper
Ah, oh bad here.

01:04:11.30
mikechumpchange
I have just made Harry's naughty list. Ah, this scene I think there's like these alternating scenes too that really work where you see him trying to be santa and really struggling in everyone's reaction to him. But then when he's able to like find the tune.

01:04:11.11
Nic
Moved.

01:04:28.68
mikechumpchange
Harry might say like outside of the hospital when he encounters the security guard and it's really stumbling and like trying to come down hard on the guy like don't you see who I am and it's like I see a crazy dude dressed like Santa Claus at midnight on Christmas eve

01:04:29.46
Brian Keiper
Um, yeah, yep.

01:04:45.97
mikechumpchange
Trying to break into a children's hospital. But then he's able to recover from that. How do you measure? how others react to Harry in this row other adults and their alternating responses to him.

01:05:00.30
Nic
I mean I again I think it's those moments of reality right? where we're seeing things through his lens of I really want the world to find me to to to find me as Santa to need me as santa.

01:05:05.95
mikechumpchange
V.

01:05:19.20
Nic
Um, and the kids get it. The adults don't and so I think that it's the moments that you see him struggling the most or when he's up against the adults like the whole confrontation at. Church starts off with people kind of mocking him because they're like who is this dude standing out at a church on Christmasman Eve in a Santa outfit so they're kind of mocking him they're doing a fake interview. Um and he like it.

01:05:42.11
mikechumpchange
Um.

01:05:57.52
Nic
I Think it's probably getting into the mental health component but that's probably where it's harder for him to kind of keep that illusion and that wall breaks and he's like Wow and same thing with the the alleyway with the parents being like.. What no we don't want this strange man just handing out things to our kids that we don't know um and so yeah, um, one of the moments that almost kind of made me cry in watching it. Um, last night.

01:06:21.26
mikechumpchange
Um.

01:06:35.20
Nic
Was the moment when he loses on the beard for the first time and he's like it's me um, like he's worked so hard to become Santa and now he's starting to see.

01:06:39.21
Brian Keiper
Um.

01:06:39.46
mikechumpchange
Um.

01:06:50.95
Nic
Himself truly as Santa with that physical modification and I think um, yeah, it. But I Really love how it sets up that like I said I don't know if his structure or tone that break to. For us to be in his head a lot and then oh no, this is actually not what we're we're seeing and it's strange.

01:07:10.44
mikechumpchange
Vu.

01:07:15.18
mikechumpchange
Do you think that it works better because he does make a good classic Santa like when you see him in the full outfit. He looks like Santa he looks the role.

01:07:28.68
Nic
Okay, well here. So to that? Yes, although I like how he's dirty. Um I don't know why but I I like that he's dirty and yet the kids are the kids comment on it but they don't.

01:07:36.19
mikechumpchange
Um.

01:07:44.80
mikechumpchange
Um.

01:07:45.40
Nic
They're not bothered. They're not like you. They're like oh well, he comes down chimneys like yeah, um, but there's a moment when he's talking to Phil on the foam where he's out of his suit.

01:07:49.17
mikechumpchange
Yeah, you're gonna get soot.

01:07:52.50
Brian Keiper
Yep.

01:08:04.43
Nic
And he just has like the pants and the suspenders and it looks like he has the belly as well like padding or something. Um, when I focused in on that eyes like that's so like that's really well.

01:08:05.90
mikechumpchange
This is.

01:08:11.12
mikechumpchange
So.

01:08:24.17
Nic
Done padding like it fits him very well. It's not like lumpy or um at all unrealistic like this is someone who is so committed to like pulling off this full like moment that I don't know I was like damn that's.

01:08:25.28
mikechumpchange
Um, yeah.

01:08:42.49
mikechumpchange
Um, yeah, no, it's ball Santa quality. It's high quality and I think the beard looks great I Think the only thing that gives it away is.

01:08:43.10
Nic
That's professional.

01:08:44.64
Brian Keiper
Ah, yeah, um.

01:08:48.40
Nic
Um, yeah.

01:08:58.33
mikechumpchange
His eyes always look sad.

01:09:00.80
Nic
Yeah, well and then of course he had the line of about shaving which is ah something Alumma went of like every shave or the death. Yeah.

01:09:09.14
Brian Keiper
Every day you shave your see yourself one day closer to death. Yeah.

01:09:16.13
mikechumpchange
Um, that's great.

01:09:18.97
Nic
Which I've never heard that before So I I feel like that is just kind of a speaking about like we're all going to Die. We're all expiring meat bags. Um, but also like I've. Like I only have so much time on Earth to fulfill my mission of santa.

01:09:40.95
mikechumpchange
Um I one of the things that struck me watching it a couple times this week when he goes to the Christmas party like and I think I love that this scene takes place after. The massacre outside the church and when he goes to the Christmas party and he's confronted by like the 2 men that are in the cups like they've had a few drinks. They're a bit jolly he's immediately wary and he's immediately on guard.

01:10:10.45
Nic
Um.

01:10:15.35
Brian Keiper
Ah.

01:10:17.16
mikechumpchange
You're right like you can you've said like that's when like the magic breaks down a little bit and he is not Santa. He's Harry Harry isn't someone who's respected by other people. Harry is someone who's not listened to by other people. Harry is someone that people.

01:10:26.30
Nic
Um, have.

01:10:33.74
mikechumpchange
Walk over. No one walks over Santa Claus people love Santa Claus nobody loves Harry so when they approach him his eyes the soundtrack kicks in. It gets at like so pulsing synth score for a minute and his eyes start to narrow and he starts to reach behind him again for a weapon.

01:10:37.92
Nic
Um.

01:10:49.91
Brian Keiper
Right.

01:10:53.46
mikechumpchange
And I love that and then they all cheer him and it softens and it becomes this really magical scene and what do we think of this kind of like Christmas party scene where Harry gets like a brief moment like probably the. Only real moment. He gets to really shine in public is Santa throughout this whole escapade.

01:11:17.15
Brian Keiper
Well I think they're feeding so much into his delusion here and it just brings him. You know it's sort of like oh hey I got a lot of likes on Twitter um, you know it's it's it's it's the endorphin rush. It's all of that going on I think you know.

01:11:30.68
mikechumpchange
Room.

01:11:34.87
Brian Keiper
Um, but then the children especially that are just because you know the children adore him I mean the children believe in him. They think that he is the real Santa Claus and I think that. This is one of the moments where Harry is like wait a minute. Maybe I am the real Santa Claus maybe it's not just me in this suit with maybe I really am and there are just a few moments of that. 1 of them is when he puts on the beard. Um.

01:12:00.31
Nic
Get.

01:12:00.33
mikechumpchange
Yeah.

01:12:09.67
mikechumpchange
Who.

01:12:12.74
Brian Keiper
And then I think as the um as the movie goes on you know and the delusions are they try to break you know like when he can't fit down the chimney ah in the later scene and and but but then it just kind of keeps coming back like no wait a minute i. Am Santa Claus it's it's really his delusion is just so fed by this sequence I think it is this is I think one of the key moments in the whole movie is this scene? Um, and it sort of lays out his philosophy too where he tells the kids is like.

01:12:39.72
mikechumpchange
Yep.

01:12:51.50
Brian Keiper
You know if you're good and listen to your parents and teachers. You'll be rewarded and if not I'll bring you something horrible and the way he says that is scary say.

01:12:56.93
mikechumpchange
Yeah, yeah, it's scary and I think it's great how they pan over to like some of the parents in that moment and it's almost like the parents get that look of like wait a minute.

01:13:06.29
Brian Keiper
Yeah.

01:13:13.50
mikechumpchange
Who did we let into this party like we don't know this person. What's going on here right now. Um, like we made a little bit of a mistake here and then he has that belly laugh and the kids are the first ones.

01:13:13.65
Brian Keiper
Yeah, right.

01:13:27.35
mikechumpchange
To laugh like they're like okay Santa like we totally buy it and they're on board like that's the deal like that's the covenant. We've made if we're good presence if we're bad coal you know like or lump a poop or whatever like that's that's the deal.

01:13:32.65
Brian Keiper
Yeah.

01:13:35.26
Nic
Um.

01:13:39.36
Brian Keiper
Right? Well and the thing is I think that um the kids are just like well this is what you've all the always told us you know mom and dad so they're just going with it.

01:13:48.53
mikechumpchange
Boom.

01:13:51.22
Nic
Um, right.

01:13:53.34
mikechumpchange
Yeah.

01:13:55.47
Brian Keiper
You know so it doesn't freak them out. They're just like yeah we know we know this is it. So it's um, yeah, it's creepy. It's a creepy seed. Um, but it's it's I think it I don't know it might be my favorite scene in the movie in some ways just because it's so kind of fascinating.

01:14:04.48
mikechumpchange
It's another yeah.

01:14:12.26
mikechumpchange
Who.

01:14:14.42
Brian Keiper
You know he because because Harry just has so much joy you know in this sequence. He's so fully committed to this thing. He's created for himself at this point and it's really something.

01:14:14.87
Nic
Um, hungry.

01:14:28.00
mikechumpchange
Um, yeah, and then you get to the next murder where he rewards Frank's children for being good boys and girls.

01:14:37.51
Brian Keiper
Right.

01:14:43.17
mikechumpchange
But he punishes Frank and he punishes Frank for making him not only work the assembly line but making a mockery of Harry ah going out drinking during yes and I love that he thought punishing him as I don't think he's punishing him as santa.

01:14:52.10
Brian Keiper
By going out drinking and during the shift in Steve. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah now Harry yeah yeah I think so too.

01:15:02.44
mikechumpchange
In that moment. He's punishing him as Harry right.

01:15:03.75
Nic
Um.

01:15:07.51
Brian Keiper
And the the way he kills him with the star topper just I mean that's that's some that that's where it sort of delves a little bit towards the silent night deadly night territory. But um, it's yeah, it's it's a interesting scene and like I said I think it has sort of that.

01:15:08.37
mikechumpchange
Month.

01:15:16.63
mikechumpchange
From yeah.

01:15:27.33
Brian Keiper
Um, it ah the beginning of the scene attempts to crush his delusion because he can't get down the Chimney you know, um, but he sort of retrieves it. So.

01:15:32.56
mikechumpchange
Move.

01:15:35.10
Nic
Um, yeah.

01:15:37.65
mikechumpchange
Got.

01:15:41.88
Nic
Yeah, well and then you get the just a brief moment with the kids and it's kind of like okay I'm back in santamon I got to be Santa um, because yeah I do think that he's a little bit jarred because those things that don't fit within kind of a.

01:15:43.88
Brian Keiper
And.

01:15:46.15
mikechumpchange
Um.

01:15:59.95
Nic
Delusion are going to jar you they're going to make it hard to stick to that and I the way that he navigates all of these different circumstances is so fascinating and I I do love just that he has like this. Very particular look after he kills him and then you see the kids in it's like okay Santa yeah and he's like well got to go? yeah.

01:16:19.40
Brian Keiper
Yeah.

01:16:26.74
mikechumpchange
And the kids are smiling still. They're like yeah and you get the mom's scream. It's a great scream really sells that scene. Um, we talked a little bit about the Frankenstein.

01:16:27.26
Brian Keiper
Yeah.

01:16:36.20
Brian Keiper
Um, yeah.

01:16:38.57
Nic
Yep.

01:16:42.18
mikechumpchange
Comparison I want to touch on that here as we get towards the end and you know writer-director Louis Jackson he said that you know even though he got to make this movie because John Carpenter's Halloween had been such a success and it really had given. Birth to the slasher genre now like okay well what else can we make that could kind of give us these returns. Um, he had written this movie years before like he had basically like had a little bit of weed gotten high and you know. Had this idea of like Santa like holding a knife and was like oh there's something there and wrote this like screenplay but he felt like this movie owed a lot more to like universal monsters and Frankenstein in particular than the slasher.

01:17:19.63
Brian Keiper
Are.

01:17:22.50
Nic
Um.

01:17:35.40
mikechumpchange
Subgenre and I think we've touched on that with like Harry being so misunderstood in feeling so out of place. Um, but also the last act of this movie is that we're going to talk like I think for the patreons we need to do like.

01:17:44.51
Brian Keiper
Um, yeah.

01:17:54.60
mikechumpchange
Frankenstein bingo in the winter and like 1 of them will be like villagers have torturers and ah torches and pitchforks because you get that here. We talked about like the father that's about to confront harry.

01:18:02.16
Brian Keiper
Right? Yeah yeah.

01:18:12.40
mikechumpchange
When he puts the kids between them and the kids like they're me like no, we're not can you imagine the parents like pulling Santa apart limb from limb in front of their children and how traumatic that would be no matter what this dude is done.

01:18:29.11
Nic
Um, yeah.

01:18:31.56
Brian Keiper
Yeah I know it's the the idea of pulling a knife on Santa stabbing him in the face with the the brooch and everything. Um, it's just they're scarring these children for life. Um.

01:18:36.78
mikechumpchange
Right. Boom down of yeah yeah.

01:18:45.59
Brian Keiper
And I know there's attempting to protect him because at this point Harry's become known they he is known in the community that there's a guy walking around pretending he's santa and he's he killed 3 people in front of a church you know, um, it's ah.

01:18:59.69
mikechumpchange
Um.

01:19:04.13
Brian Keiper
But then some of the discussions like the cops have are kind of maybe it's a good thing What he's doing because he's putting you know the fear of the myth back in you know it's It's really kind of a interesting scene I think that that whole idea was expanded on with a rare exports that movie.

01:19:11.30
mikechumpchange
Move move.

01:19:22.48
Nic
Um, and.

01:19:22.96
mikechumpchange
Ah.

01:19:23.50
Brian Keiper
That that's the whole idea behind that movie in my opinion. Um, so and I love that one too. But um, yeah, so oh, but it's it's fantastic I Love that movie so much. Yeah, um I can remember where I was going with that. So.

01:19:30.66
mikechumpchange
I've yet to watch that I've yet to see rare exports. Okay.

01:19:33.33
Nic
So good.

01:19:41.56
Nic
Well I the thing and it exactly to what you're talking about with the parents in this moment but you were were in in kind of this alley confrontation.

01:19:42.47
Brian Keiper
But.

01:19:57.37
mikechumpchange
Are.

01:19:58.79
Nic
Really in conflict with like these 2 different things going on 1 is that we have Harry's delusion and we're still kind of trying to see things through his perspective. Um, but we also are now with these parents.

01:20:05.23
Brian Keiper
Um.

01:20:15.74
Nic
Who are now being like who is a stranger like engaging with our kids. What is he doing and we understand in that reality like this is someone that has killed and so we're trying to like suss out like what are the stakes here.

01:20:28.52
mikechumpchange
Okay.

01:20:28.84
Brian Keiper
Um, yep.

01:20:35.25
Nic
Um, where and how will things and could things turn. Um and always thinking about like are the kids in danger I Always love a horror film where a kid gets killed um because I think that it's just like.

01:20:53.16
Nic
It's through it wants to throw out those expectations of like we have to preserve kids. It is so still. Yeah but I the threat of the child honestly comes from the dad.

01:20:58.97
mikechumpchange
It's such a taboo.

01:20:59.10
Brian Keiper
Yeah, it raises the stakes quite a bit.

01:21:11.68
Brian Keiper
Um, yeah.

01:21:11.84
Nic
When he has the knife and he goes and runs up to her and the mom is screaming in the background watch out. Um even to him and she when he loses the knife and she goes picks it up and takes it to Santa is like.

01:21:13.15
mikechumpchange
Um.

01:21:29.45
Nic
Go off Angelica let let them know where you stand.

01:21:34.20
mikechumpchange
Yeah, absolutely and nice to know that their kids will always pick Santa over their parents I would say tough to compete. But there's no, there's no attempt to like de-escalate. There's no attempt to like let's safely get the children away.

01:21:39.63
Brian Keiper
Yes, yes I think that yeah it is.

01:21:41.46
Nic
Um, yes.

01:21:48.52
Nic
No.

01:21:53.43
mikechumpchange
And maybe like get this guy you know like if not get him some help let's get him away from the kids and bring him somewhere or call in some people that can like get him peacefully away. It's like once he runs Away. It's like we're going straight to. Pitchfork and ah lighted Porch. Oh My God they're awesome.

01:22:14.60
Brian Keiper
Those torches are crazy though I mean those the there it's it's like they. That's that's a pretty crazy moment because like where did they get these kinds of torches you know, um, it's Christmas night um

01:22:24.37
Nic
Um, thank you like how did they fashion these in like 4 seconds

01:22:30.44
Brian Keiper
Yeah, and they have like um they have like meshing on them and stuff like professional torches. They're not like you know you took a stick and you put a rag on the end they're they're the real deal. So yeah, yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

01:22:42.40
mikechumpchange
Um, yeah, oh yeah, you torches are us basically is where you would go or like everybody asks for torches for Christmas so that's what they got like.

01:22:47.68
Nic
Um.

01:22:48.77
Brian Keiper
Yeah.

01:22:53.38
mikechumpchange
All that in the neighborhood just happened to ask for those and like we get to bust them out. Fantastic Um, and they.

01:22:58.58
Brian Keiper
Well and it was clear that I mean that is a choice that's a directorial choice to to do that because you're definitely evoking universal monsters at that point if you're if you're if you're whipping out the torches in 1980

01:22:59.83
Nic
Um, yeah.

01:23:05.55
mikechumpchange
Um.

01:23:07.99
mikechumpchange
Oh.

01:23:10.95
Nic
Um, yeah.

01:23:14.87
Brian Keiper
Instead of flashlights and rifles you know or something like that. Um, you're definitely trying to evoke um classic monster movies.

01:23:16.47
mikechumpchange
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and it would have been a time when those movies were in constant rotation like.

01:23:27.99
Brian Keiper
Absolutely aha.

01:23:31.45
mikechumpchange
Creature feature Saturday afternoons like that's where I grew up like watching those movies like every Saturday afternoon there was going to be a universal monster movie on television so you would have been able to watch those all the time like it would have been a familiar gag.

01:23:37.39
Brian Keiper
Um, yeah.

01:23:38.11
Nic
Um, and then.

01:23:48.84
mikechumpchange
That point and it's a wonderful chas scene. You really do feel for Harry here despite everything he's done. You can feel his like his fear and his confusion about like I'm Santa like why don't people love me anymore. What have I done. That's so bad i'm. Punishing the people that deserve it and he's terrified and you can understand why he is I love the shot when he thinks he's gotten away and he's in the foreground and then it's pitch black almost and then the villagers. All the villagers.

01:24:22.90
Nic
I Have never.

01:24:24.68
mikechumpchange
The towns folks show up behind him and he has to start running again and it's a great shot like really well executed.

01:24:29.61
Brian Keiper
Um, and that's one of the things This is a really well shot movie. There's so many great. You know you can tell you know, just some of the tracking shots or the nice low angle things. There's a great.

01:24:35.00
mikechumpchange
It really is.

01:24:41.51
mikechumpchange
Who.

01:24:45.91
Brian Keiper
At the beginning. There's like a citizen cane shot with the snow globe in the foreground. There's all kinds of great stuff in this. It's really a good looking movie considering how inexpensive it was.

01:24:46.29
mikechumpchange
Um, review shop. Yeah I hope.

01:24:49.16
Nic
Um, and.

01:24:54.30
Nic
Um, but.

01:24:58.52
Nic
I mean I think obviously the the parallels to Frankenstein are there I I also think a little bit about the visual onity justice of Freddy Kruger um but with the parents I mean obviously this is very different.

01:25:09.15
mikechumpchange
Move.

01:25:09.44
Brian Keiper
Sure yeah.

01:25:16.50
Nic
But I I don't know like it's I like the way that this is set up because it does make us because of the parallels to Frankenstein. We're like. We are very much slooped into Harry's way of thinking which is like they don't understand me. They don't get me. They're just not. They're not in tune with me. Um, and it just makes it really sad like even his.

01:25:38.50
Brian Keiper
Um, and again.

01:25:45.71
mikechumpchange
Moving.

01:25:50.23
Nic
Violence has just been trying to get people to understand where he's coming from I guess and I yeah.

01:25:53.95
mikechumpchange
Now.

01:25:59.63
mikechumpchange
And I think too like you mentioned a vigilante justice of elm street. It's also coming off the backs of like death wish a few years before in the dirty Harry Movies so that's very much in the air as well. You get this final confrontation between harry.

01:26:09.88
Nic
Um, yeah, and.

01:26:10.99
Brian Keiper
Dirty hair. Yeah.

01:26:18.84
mikechumpchange
Phil you know and men will do anything you know except go to therapy even choke santa nearly to death. But I love Phil here I love how Phil is like I was six years old why are you putting this on me and you feel like 2030 years of frustration of a.

01:26:24.25
Nic
Um, listen.

01:26:30.73
Brian Keiper
Right.

01:26:37.31
mikechumpchange
Of a younger brother that you know loves his older brother but is also like scared of him and frustrated by him and terrified of him and also really angry like this is what you put me through for how many years ah and then horrified at what he did.

01:26:50.30
Nic
Yeah.

01:26:55.13
mikechumpchange
Like he thinks he's killed Harry at this point and it's a great scene and I don't think Phyll is a villain.

01:26:57.57
Nic
And then.

01:26:58.56
Brian Keiper
And it's interesting too. No I don't think fills a villain either but his um his wife is watching all of this happen from the sames it's the same house as it's the same childhood house and so she's watching it from behind the you know the banister in that so she's watching.

01:27:08.20
mikechumpchange
Um, who yeah, um.

01:27:18.12
Brian Keiper
Ah, sort of delusions of Santa Claus shatter in from the same vantage point where Harry's delusions of Santa Claus were shattered to and it's just like it's it's it's really I love this movie so much. Ok, um, yeah so um.

01:27:26.14
mikechumpchange
Um, um.

01:27:33.23
mikechumpchange
It's a great like.

01:27:38.15
Brian Keiper
Well they put him back in the van though when when Harry Punches out that fell that's one of the fudiest shots though. It's really awkward. It's like oh we should say you know Phil is played by Jeffrey Demon um who's you know the blob and all sorts of stuff. 1 of the one of the those one of the that guy actors right.

01:27:38.18
mikechumpchange
The. It really is.

01:27:51.90
mikechumpchange
Um.

01:27:52.23
Nic
Yeah.

01:27:57.98
Brian Keiper
Um, and he's so good in this. He's in that small part. But ah yeah.

01:28:02.51
mikechumpchange
Yeah, he does do great in this.

01:28:02.64
Nic
Yeah I I I like their relationship and I hear I know you mentioned it to Mike I think at the top but just this idea of having to be responsible a little bit for Harry too and.

01:28:17.96
Brian Keiper
Yeah, yeah.

01:28:21.30
Nic
Concern and care like we talk a lot about Harry feeling isolated and alone and not really having um people around him but his brother very much like loves him and wants him to be in his life and to be super involved with the family. But he I think the moments of reality that Harry processes is probably just stemmed from like you ruined kind of the the myth and the magic for me and you're doing okay.

01:28:54.39
Brian Keiper
Are.

01:28:57.37
mikechumpchange
Ah.

01:28:59.88
Nic
You're living a good life a happy life. You can still be happy I can't I can't be content with that.

01:29:02.41
mikechumpchange
Um, yeah, but I think if you're Phil at a certain point too. You're like how long am I gonna have to like endure this.

01:29:17.65
Nic
Um, yeah, yeah.

01:29:18.36
mikechumpchange
These ramling you ever hear if you have that relative where everyone is just like just let them go just it's easier to just let smile and Nod just let them do their thing because it's easier than correcting them and like that is so hard to do.

01:29:25.92
Brian Keiper
Just smile and nod. Yeah.

01:29:37.54
mikechumpchange
And like how many years has Phil had to like smile and grit his teeth. Do you know what? I mean like so it's like I can see both sides of that coin. No, what do we make of this ending. What are your takes what is and Brian you just kind of like went field goal.

01:29:42.97
Nic
Um, oh yeah.

01:29:46.63
Brian Keiper
No, she yeah for sure. Ah, it's genius.

01:29:56.82
mikechumpchange
Yeah.

01:29:57.16
Brian Keiper
It's genius I that's what I think of this ending. Ok everyone is like talks about the ending of this movie. No one understands I don't think I understand it I'm pretty sure that Harry goes off the edge and dies but he has.

01:30:10.88
mikechumpchange
Move.

01:30:16.54
Brian Keiper
Given so fully over to his fantasy that he just flies off out of sight and everyone in his imagination at least sees him do it? Ok um.

01:30:22.72
mikechumpchange
Move.

01:30:29.22
mikechumpchange
Um, yeah.

01:30:30.41
Nic
Yep I I think that it's it's interesting because we do get this shot of Harry and it looks like he's dead slash dying or something because.

01:30:33.99
Brian Keiper
Right.

01:30:45.70
Brian Keiper
Um.

01:30:46.76
Nic
We have to think about this in in a couple of different contexts 1 is that he's finally getting what he wants like the ultimate thing which is to prove the magic to people right? Even the adults because we see see adults being like oh that's not real.

01:30:52.70
Brian Keiper
And his.

01:31:05.57
Nic
Um, ah we know that that's not what's actually happening. But yeah I think this is like his thelman louise moment of going off the cliff and my last moments when I'm in my head I'm just going to be like in.

01:31:13.84
Brian Keiper
Yeah.

01:31:25.26
Nic
I've lived my best moment here.

01:31:26.81
Brian Keiper
And there's also that wonderful moment before that where he's driving towards the edge and he hears the sleigh bells and he just kind of looks up and it's like they came for me you know Santa came for me I've done I've done good for him.

01:31:34.36
mikechumpchange
Move. Oh.

01:31:43.88
Nic
He got his wings Santa got his wings.

01:31:46.54
Brian Keiper
He got his wings. Yeah Harry got his wings. Yeah oh what? a great flick. Oh shes I I yeah me too me too.

01:31:48.66
mikechumpchange
Excellent. Well I think we nailed it I think we nailed Christmas evil right? It really is it goes up in my estimation every time I watch it? Um I can see.

01:31:51.37
Nic
What.

01:32:02.81
Nic
Um, we can many.

01:32:04.97
mikechumpchange
And I still feel like it's a criminally underseen. It still feels like it doesn't have that cachet that a lot of other Christmas horror movies have and I'm really glad we covered it like I'm going to add this to the rotation every year just that performance is just so good. Just like what a.

01:32:11.53
Brian Keiper
Are.

01:32:23.41
Nic
Um, yeah.

01:32:24.29
mikechumpchange
What a picture all right? My friends. What do we have coming up Nicole what is going on with bodies of horror.

01:32:29.44
Nic
Bodies of horror is trucking along. Um I may have an episode ah in the pipeline with the one and only Mr Brian ah coming up which I'm super excited about the most recent episode ah dropped. This week with another pod and a pendulum ah fave Devan talking about swallow um, which is such a bananas. Ah ah, amazing movie. Um, so yeah, i.

01:32:56.80
mikechumpchange
Um.

01:33:07.48
Nic
I'm going to be ah switching ah gears a little bit and focusing in on eugenics at the beginning of the year and talking about Frankenstein a book that I've been reading um talks a little bit about Frankenstein and its conception in terms of.

01:33:13.35
Brian Keiper
Oh fascinating. Yeah.

01:33:26.72
Nic
How the character was built was to emphasize some of these elements um around eugenics at the time. So interesting stuff. So I'm really excited to get into that but you can ah find me over at. The anatomy of a scream feed wherever you get your pods and you can find me on the socials on twixt for now I am bodies whore I'm ah loving life over at Instagram.

01:33:58.96
mikechumpchange
Who.

01:34:01.60
Nic
And I am bodies of horror podcasts there and at Blue Ski I am bodies of horror.

01:34:06.20
mikechumpchange
Excellent Brian. What do you have going on.

01:34:11.75
Brian Keiper
Well, um, writing slowed down a little bit just been busy with a I've been playing a show ah playing guitar for a show. So it's been keeping me busy but hey I do have things over bloody disgusting and Manor Vellum ah from time to time I've got a piece coming up to Manor Vellum about sort of the it's a brief history of holiday horror and it's a lot of fun I thought it was a fun article to write. Um.

01:34:35.37
mikechumpchange
Who.

01:34:38.16
Nic
Um.

01:34:39.66
Brian Keiper
And over at movies for life if you want to dip into our archives if you're feeling festive. You can listen to us talk about it's a wonderful life and scrooged and then last year we talked about Christmas evil and ah p two which are both ah p two is great too. A really good one. This year we went action and we went sly and so we are covering first blood and cobra as our Christmas movies this year and it was a blast to record that should be dropping sometime within the next week or so.

01:34:59.74
Nic
Um, okay.

01:35:06.55
mikechumpchange
Excellent, Excellent. Yeah.

01:35:17.10
mikechumpchange
Love it. Love it.

01:35:18.22
Brian Keiper
And you can find me on on ah on the various socials at Brian waves 42 and you can find ah the movies for life podcast on Twitter and Instagram at movie life pod sorry I just can't call it x i.

01:35:33.19
mikechumpchange
Perfect nope nor should you nor should you well listeners. Thank you for listening and thanks for checking out our holiday horror line up this season honestly, just thought it would be a really fun way to kind of cover some like really festive 1 ne-off movies that don't.

01:35:35.93
Nic
Um.

01:35:51.86
mikechumpchange
Fall under our normal purview and next week it's going to be Christmas so we're going to do something a little different again last year we covered a straight up Christmas classic with its a wonderful life which is a awesome conversation with Brian and myself like we covered I think like the greatest Christmas movie of them all. Um. So. It's only downhill from there and we plan on doing that again this year with our ah good friends Kermit and Fozzy and gonzo and Miss Piggy and we're going to chat I think what is probably the best adaptation of like Charles Dickens classic Christmas story. We're going to be talking. It's a muppetchristmas Carol next week and it falls on Christmas day like it's usually it's a bonus episode. Ah but because Christmas is on a Monday and that's when we usually draw drop episodes I might drop it on Christmas Eve just so like when folks are kind of like doing their last-minute shopping. Maybe you'll throw it in because I got to be honest, like I have a hard time imagining people waking up Christmas morning and wanting to spend time with me my family doesn't even want to do that. Apparently so.

01:37:01.93
Nic
Um.

01:37:03.35
mikechumpchange
Why would you but that's a story from my therapist. Um, thanks mom anyway, ah it will be a muppet Christmas Carol next week followed by our top ten horror films of 2023 that's going to be fought on New Year's day and then we're going to be getting down to some real business with the first 8 episodes of the new Year Brian and I are planning out our deep dive into universal monsters with all things Frankenstein everything from the classic 1931 adaptation all the way through aott and costello meet. Um, so we're really excited for that I've already started my notes on that. Um, so we're lining up some guests as well. Follow us on page. Ah follow us on Twitter at pod and pendulum follow us on blueski at pod in the pendulum I'll throw an Instagram up at some point I should probably do that in the new year ah go to our website podintheenddulum.com that's where all of our back episodes are can leave us a review on there. Free and easy way to support us is to rate us review us and subscribe to us make sure you leave us 5 stars in a review on the Apple store huge way for new listeners to discover us and it costs you nothing but like 2 minutes of your time.

01:38:34.00
mikechumpchange
If you have the means to do so consider becoming a patron. We have about 50 hours of bonus content with more coming and we're going to be adding ah more exclusive shows and materials every month your patronage goes a long way to keeping the show going.

01:38:34.23
Nic
Um.

01:38:50.41
mikechumpchange
We'd appreciate your help so head over to patreon.compod and the pendulum to become a member today I believe later this week Brian myself and maybe 1 other are going to be sitting down to talk godzilla minus one as our Patreon bonus episode. For the month which is spoiler alert. 1 of my favorite movies of the year I think will be gushing over that. So yeah and here start at two bucks I mean like come on. That's super cheap. So that's it for this week we wish everyone a safe and happy holiday season. We thank you for listening.

01:39:13.60
Brian Keiper
It's rad. It's rad. Yeah.

01:39:16.60
Nic
Yes.

01:39:26.82
mikechumpchange
And we will be back soon and if you're good. We've got great surprises for you. But if you're bad we will leave you horrible horrible things take care and happy holidays. Everyone.