EYES WIDE SHUT

0:35 None right Ho ho ho and Merry Christmas, everyone. It's a tradition unlike any other as part of the pendulum tradition as we break away every Christmas from our traditional format of delivering a horror movie franchise episode and instead we bring you a beloved Christmas classic that drops here on December the 25th. If you're giving us a listen and getting the Christmas scoop stuffed after opening up what we hope are some wonderful physical media gifts and presents, thank you for spending your holiday morning with us. As always, I'm your host Mike, Santa Claus Sununian and there is no one I would rather be dressing up in a mask and cloak with while the incense goes. And we, you know, we party naked then my Co hosts that are here today.

1:24 First up from the disenfranchised podcast, Mr. Steven Foxworthy. Steven, how are we? Doing great Mike, happy to be here. I'll just be standing awkwardly in the corner watching while you guys discuss this movie. Excellent. That will be. I'll come and I'll take you by the hand, and that will be in the. Podcast that'll be. Great lead you around. I just asked it if you do, you get topless first, please and thank you. Oh. Absolutely. Why? Why not? So it's the least. You can do. It is the very least I can do and you know, like maybe I'll do more as this goes on. Maybe I'll do more. For those that are confused, our other Co host is the reason we're talking about this movie today from the Bodies of Horror podcast, the lovely Miss Nicole Goble. Nicole, why don't you tell our listeners what they are in store for this morning?

2:20 Yeah, so we are going to be talking about the Stanley Kubrick Final film Eyes Wide Shut. So we are bringing you a relationship messiness, some creepiness and some good old fashioned orgy holiday fun. And we're going to talk about a movie so fantastic, everybody. We'll get to it. So we'll get to it. So I guess I'll start with this question as we we break this down here. My question for you both because like Nicole, you suggested this and Steven, you gave like a very enthusiastic like absolutely, let's do this.

3:05 What makes Eyes Wide Shut a Christmas movie? And I'm putting Christmas in quotes like what makes it a festive holiday movie. I guess the answer to that question, I'm going to answer that question with another question, Mike, which is what do we talk about when we talk about Christmas movies, like what? Presents What do we? Want from a Christmas movie? Well, I mean, Will Ferrell singing in the shower with a manic Pixie dream girl. Ralphie shooting, right? Ralphie shooting his eye out. Muppets. You know, Jimmy Stewart running around, you know, asking why he has so many damn kids.

3:46 Like those are the things that typically spring and die hard. You know, those are the and Kevin McAllister basically indulging his sociopathic tendencies and Gizmo, of course. So I would say that. So that is the answer. And I feel like I've not answered that question properly. Well, no, I just because I don't know, the more I think about this, this eternal debate that we culturally just seem to have when this time of year rolls around is what is and is not a Christmas movie. And it almost feels like it's dictated by sentimentality and nostalgia. The movie has a healthy degree of sentimentality or if it's something we're nostalgic for, then it's a Christmas movie.

4:28 But if it's not, then it's a movie that takes place on Christmas but not officially a Christmas film. And I think that's I find that distinction specious at best, because at at that case, a Christmas movie is only something that you feel. But I would consider this every bit the Christmas movie that It's a Wonderful Life is, for example. I mean, similar themes of loneliness around the holidays of 1, reconsidering and recontextualizing what one really wants out of life and, and what in learning to live and be content with what one has. I think both of those are foundational. And if you really think about it, there's only a little bit of It's a Wonderful Life that actually takes place on Christmas. The reason we consider that one a Christmas movie is because it went into the public domain and got aired every year on TV around Christmas.

5:17 And that's why, again, collectively, due to sentimentality and nostalgia, that is a Christmas movie. But something like this, which does something very similar in a much more modern contemporary context, is is often brushed aside or not seen as Christmassy enough, when in reality it has just about ever been as much to do with Christmas as the other. Yeah, I'm going to also answer again. Nicole Kidman naked would also be like a wonderful Christmas present, that's what. We all went under our tree this year. Right. All of us do. Like, that would be another. So yeah, I definitely like I you know, I see the illusions here you're making in the note comparing this to like a wonderful life and maybe in a weird kind of fun house way.

6:06 But I'm going to take I'm going to take some Umbridge, like Umbridge has been taken. So take as much as you need my say that just. Leave some for the rest of us, OK? Nicole, how about yourself? Because like, this was your choice. So I'm really interested in hearing your answer. Like what makes this like a Christmas movie aside from the fact that it like, takes place like around the holidays? I think that for me, you know, when we think about the holidays outside of the, I think more stereotypical like, oh, joy and celebrations and all of these things, it's also a time of turmoil. Relationships are often frayed because of a gazillion and different reasons.

6:49 I think there's, you know, a societal pressure that as the year comes to an end, we have to be able to figure out what our next steps are. And I this movie is very much a journey about two people figuring out like, are we on the path that we need to be on right now? And I think that that's something that resonates a lot in holiday movies. It's about like, hey, you know, we're forced to be together right now and we're going through these experiences together right now. You know, are we are we doing things right? And I also just you know, I also just think of like tawdriness during the holidays too, like, you know, all of the parties and the mixing and mingling that you do and, you know, also wish fulfillment. We give a lot during this season, but we also want to get and I think that that's certainly on Tom cruises mind in this film is like, okay, so how do I how do I start to feel that I'm measuring up again to expectations and how do I get that reassurance?

8:03 So I don't know. It hits a lot on philosophical reasons, but I think it's a really, really good point that often the movies that resonate a lot with us around the holidays have very little to actually do with the holidays themselves. It's more about kind of the immersion, the emotional flux that we all find ourselves in this time of year. And I know for me, like, this was a first time watch, like I had not seen this and in all honesty, probably like would not have seen it if not like maybe for a really long time. So I'm wondering like what both of your like early experiences were with this movie? Nicole, you start.

8:46 Yeah, I saw it in theaters. I'm a hardcore Kubrick fan, and so I was really excited about this movie. You know, obviously no one expected this to be Kubrick's last movie. But then again, he also was not a director that was just cranking them out all the time. He had some real rest time between them. So, you know, you when someone is getting older, you often think, hey, if they're not making movies every so often, is this going to be their last movie potentially? And I was really interested in having a couple, you know, kind of take on this film. This is obviously one of the first times that I think Tom Cruise, for lack, I think maybe not Nicole Kidman, have really worked with a director of kind of the baggage of Kubrick. And so I was really interested how all of those dynamics would fees together because Kubrick, as much as I love him, he is what I call my problematic faith. He's kind of a terrible person in a lot of ways. But, you know, I think that there's also a lot of people who will say, yeah, the man was terrible, but there was kind of a method to it.

10:10 Like he did it because he knew what he wanted to get and he wasn't going to to let anyone be comfortable without that. And so I don't know, I I was really excited. So yeah, I saw it in theaters and I actually saw it right, I think right before I saw a Magnolia. So because it came out right about the same time. Yeah, yeah, OK. And Steven, how about yourself? So I was in high school when this movie came out and as, as I've mentioned maybe once or twice on the podcast before, grew up in a fairly conservative religious household. So this was not something that was on my radar beyond the, Oh my God, they're naked on the poster kind of thing, which I, you know, as a horny teenager, thought was very cool.

11:01 And, you know, Nicole Kidman has always just kind of been, you know, one of one of my favorites. She is, to be clear, I love her for her talent and but she's also gorgeous. Let's just be very clear. She's very talented and very beautiful. And I hold those two things in in harmony. But that said, I didn't watch this in full until I was, I mean, I had seen pieces of it before, but I didn't see it in full until I was until the pandemic actually, which is I feel like my constant answer on this podcast. When did you first get the pandemic? Because I watched like 400 movies that year. I had nothing else to do. I just watched movies. So this was a Christmas watch for me. And I just remember being kind of completely flabbergasted by it. Like, I knew it was good.

11:44 Like I knew it was very good, but I didn't quite know what to make of it. And I've watched it. This is, I think, my third watch through of it. I, I, every time I watch it, I get a little more out of it. I, I glean a little more. I had, I come away with a slightly better understanding. And so, yeah, any excuse. So I was finishing it tonight before we started recording and my partner finished work and she's like, I don't think I've ever seen this movie. And then we had a nice long chat about kind of the the sexual mores of this time period and why this is probably the last of the erotic thrillers that that came out in the 90s. Yeah. So, yeah, lots of talk about, lots of uncover, lots of unpack. And I'm looking. Forward to it. I imagine Gen. Z would have like a lot to say about the this. Everybody have to be naked in this movie. Like, I don't want to, you know, like I imagined there'd be a lot to say.

12:33 Yeah. This was like a again, like a first time watch. I've now watched it twice because I do like to go through things a couple times before before, even if it's something I know really well, let alone something like this where it's just like you can't really digest it on just like 1 viewing. And I'm really excited you guys brought this one to the table. I could be partly because like I need help understanding Stanley Kubrick and I've I've watched about a half dozen of his films at this point. So it's not like I'm a novice. Like I, you know, the first thing I would ever seen by him would have been like a Clockwork Orange, which is like a early 20 something like really loved it as a 40 something.

13:15 It hits. It plays much, much differently. Lolita, The Shining, obviously. Actually, The Shining would have been the first thing I watched. I saw that at way too young an age and like the Shining to me, plays this camp more than anything else. Full Metal Jacket. And my favorite that I've seen from him is probably The Killing, which is the Lee Stanley Kubrick Kubrick film. I mean, it's really is like it's unlike anything else. Like out of the other. I still haven't watched Doctor Strangelove in 2001, even though I own both. And I feel like I need to kind of, I know, especially with our patron St. George C Scott, right, prominent, featuring so prominently.

13:58 So those will be like 2026 watches. But like I just find him really unapproachable as an as a director. Like I just, I find it really hard to engage with his work. And I'm really trying with this one. And there's I think a lot of good things to take away from it. But I also find myself like vehemently disagree with what he's maybe saying in this. And also I find his methods baffling. And I'll say it right now, like I'll come right out and ask when I asked this on the slack, like, is Stanley Kubrick like a a bad director? And I'm putting bad in quotes like, but is he a bad director that makes great movies? Because we're going to kind of talk about this here. If you need like 95 takes of a person walking through a door to get it right, like you're doing something wrong. If you need to terrorize your cast in order to get it right, like I just think you're doing something wrong. Like you don't need to do that as an artist to and Nicole, you look floored right?

15:02 Now imagine if like I flubbed the opening of this podcast, right? I flubbed it twice before kind of getting it. Imagine if I did that to myself 95 times. I'd be a shitty. Podcaster at that point and. I think that this just speaks to you can't really separate. I I, I totally get what you're saying about if he a bad director who made interesting work, right air quotes bad. But I think that again, everything that he does is very intentional.

15:43 I mean, a lot of his films are based on books and he's really, I think, taking these books and exploring them in ways that a lot of people don't. And This is why I like with Lolita. Yes, Lolita. We could do 8 podcasts about that and the text and the film adaptations and the societal implications. But I really like his take on it because he really just wanted to make an ass out of Humphrey's. He's like, I just want him to be kind of just this blatant ass. You don't think the book does that? It does, but a lot of people miss it. A lot of people latch on to like this, oh, this is just this guy pining for this girl because she reminds him of this past that he had to where Kubrick is like, Nah, it's a little more than that, y'all, And let's get real weird with it. And I appreciate that.

16:50 Same thing with The Shining. Like, you know, a lot of people when that movie came out, they hated Shelly Duvall's performance. They said this is just so ridiculous, so over the top. And now you look at it and it's a piece of art because he knew how to get exactly what he wanted from her and it was horrific and atrocious. OK, my counter to that would be if you need to go to that extreme to get that from your performer, you're, I don't know, lacking some basic human understanding. I don't know, like there's something this is like this is the therapist and me talking right now.

17:32 Like I just wouldn't Like I would say go no contact with Stanley Kubrick if he was here. But I get what you're saying. Like you're not. I mean, like everything you're saying is right about like the end result, but it's like the getting there that no. And I think you make a really, really good point about, you know, have to go through those hoops. What's like, is it worth it? Like what? What is that saying about you having that clear vision, be able to communicate that to the actors and the crew so that everything is clear? But I think I just based on like interviews and stuff that I've read and have seen of him, he would be the first to say that he struggles with kind of human emotion.

18:21 I mean, he would be like dad checks, like he's really not a a people person. And I think that that's kind of what makes his films interesting. It almost feels like an alien trying to figure out human dynamics and relationships and what they mean and these really complex stories. And I, I really get a lot out of that. I mean, The Clockwork Orange to me, like you said, you watch it when you're younger and you get 1 read of it. But then when you watch it now, I really do get the vibe of like Alex being like, not of this planet and kind of being like this extraterrestrial being like, what is the human condition?

19:08 What is violence? How are we conditioned? Nature versus nurture. Asking all these questions. Yeah. And I know Steven, like you had a take on that question as well when I post it out there. Yeah, I there's so much more to directing than working with actors, right to start. And as far as visual stylists go, Kubrick is one of the best. He's such a, such an incredible visual stylist, but he's really bad as, as we've mentioned, really bad with people. And I, I think a lot of it may also stem from and, and there's been a lot of discourse within the past several years, rightly so, about the myth of the brilliant male mind and the brilliant male artist and the shit that we let those white males get away with in pursuit of their art. And I think a lot of that has been reckoned with recently. And I think Kubrick has posthumously come under a lot of fire once, you know, shit like the Duval thing or, you know, the making Tom Cruise or Harvey Keitel walk through a door 95 times, Like all of that has kind of come into question about Kubrick's place.

20:13 And I think a lot of it has to do with outmoded views of power. Outmoded and and and a deep insecurity on Kubrick's part with regard to his own ability and his own talent and his own power, as it were. And that comes as a means not just of get it. It comes as a means of exercising that power in pursuit of the art, I think. And so, you know, when you, when you hear this and, and, and there's again, there's so much of Kubrick that we have to hold in tension because while he's terrorizing Shelley Duvall on the set of The Shining, he is doing everything in his power to protect Danny Lloyd from any of the horrific elements of that shoot. And you have to hold those two things. And I don't think 1 negates or, you know, cancels out the other. We have to hold he's a human being and human beings are creatures of inconsistencies.

21:06 And so we have to hold those inconsistencies in tension when we talk about him as as an artist. And so I get I don't think it makes him a a bad director. There are so many things that he's good at. This one particular area was not his strong suit. And unfortunately, I don't think he handled it well. I don't think it's so much that he's a bad director. And I think I said this on the slack so much as he's just a bad human being, right? Like he's not very good at being human, particularly when it comes to empathy toward his fellow man. He doesn't know how to set boundaries like there was. I think Spielberg talked about how Kubrick wanted him to install a fax machine in his bedroom so he get ahold of him like at all hours of the day. And I think Spielberg's response was like, no, which good for him. We'll talk about response.

21:50 Let's be. Right, which is really the right response thing. I I kind of just wrote in my notes and I think we'll talk about it when we talk about either the movie itself or like how it came together. Is the idea of like, well, he knows exactly what he wants. And my question is, does he, Because what comes up like posthumously with Kubrick is like he didn't especially with this movie in particular, he didn't quite, and it took him like more than 30 years to crack this. Like this was like a decades long, which we'll talk about. He doesn't seem to know what he wants to do when he's doing the script at 1st. And I think part of that is like you have a writer that is pumping up his own tires a lot more and trying to deflate Stanley's in the process.

22:37 But then like when we talk about the fabled orgy scene, people going to like, it didn't seem like he even wanted to do it and he had no idea how to do it to the point where they're like, why don't we just have Tony Scott come in? Which now I want a Tony Scott cocaine fueled orgy scene, which would be fucking amazing. I mean, that would be talk about flying into the danger zone with Tom Cruise and that would be something else, I think. Though you mentioned something that's really important to note, which is, you know, this had been a long, you know, kind of dream of Kubrick's to make this movie in a long process over decades.

23:22 And you know, nothing about Stanley moved fast. And so when you have all of that time to sit with this idea, to sit with this text, your ideas are going to change with it. You're going to read it again and you're going to be like, oh, wait, I kind of dug this more or I'm kind of pulling this out. And now maybe this should really be what the film is about. And you can't, you can't stop yourself from doing that. And so when it comes to, you know, maybe when that idea first struck, Stanley was like a very clear idea, this is what I want to do 15 years later, Very clear idea.

24:05 This is what I want to do now. It's a little bit different. And you know, I think probably too, you know, he was someone who was older and probably wrestling with like I think all directors do. What is going to be my legacy? Like what what are people going to remember from my work and what are people going to remember from my last work? Because unfortunately, whether it's good or bad, that's what's going to sit with people probably first and foremost. And then it's like, all right, well, let's go and explore the back catalog. And so I think, you know, there's so many different things kind of at play that of course Stanley would never really pontificate on.

24:47 But I think that it's probably a little bit of that. I know that if I sit more than, you know, an hour, like writing at a podcast script, I will go back and I will change it 60 different times. And then I will just be mad at myself and say I'm going back to the original because that was my hot takes and what was feeling good in the gut and. I think of like the comparison I make is Alfred Hitchcock, who we talk about problematic faves and we're going to tackle our first Hitchcock movie to start the new year, which I'm really excited to do. And I think like before Hitchcock like got into the director's chair and yelled action. Every single bit of minutia was like figured out and put in front of him to the degree that like he was actually bored with filming.

25:40 He was like, and he and I think about a guy who in like a four year period churns out rear window Vertigo North by Northwest Psycho like that is just like tosses them off and like what a five year period between 55 and 60 and you know, four of the greatest films ever made and whose influence we still see to this day. And it was almost like nothing to him. Like Psycho was kind of a joke. He he was offended that people liked psycho so much. He's like, this is a piece of crap. Like what are you like? This is a little black and white cheapie. Like, what are you people like it to the point where he had researchers like try to get back to him with like what made that work?

26:27 So he could try to recapture that because it made him very, very rich as well, which, but by the time like Hitchcock would get behind the the, the, the the lad, he'd be like, great, I know everything I'm doing at this point. He didn't waste time. And I guess that's like 2 polar opposite opposites. And you know, Hitchcock was very problematic in his own right. So, but we'll save, I guess, that discussion for Psycho. What will we get to it in a couple of weeks, which I'm really excited. Should we dive into the making of this movie? Let's do it. This should be fun. So my first note, and we've kind of talked it about a little bit. Stanley Kubrick. What a giant weirdo. Who would like to espouse? I mean, he I wouldn't put him quite in Dang ass freak cat territory, but like he's close.

27:16 He's he's adjacent. Like again, like I think Nicole put it really well, like he feels like an alien trying to like figure out what life is and you know, you have here, like when he's not working, he's pretty reclusive. And that was kind of always part of the mystery of Kubrick is like, who is this dude? Like all he does is just send faxes to people. Like that was kind of what he did later in his life. He's he would just get these ideas in the middle of the night and wake up and just fire off faxes to like all these people. Like he directs a brilliant movie, Barry Lyndon, and the lead of that movie is so enamoured of him that he just quits acting to become his his assistant for the rest of his life.

27:57 Like he's Kubrick's assistant right up to the day he dies. Leon Vitale. And I'm sure we will mention at some point in this episode, like it just like the myth surrounding the man is so incredible. But to look at him, he's just kind of this weird little guy. Like I think there was a HBO movie with Geoffrey Rush called The Life and Death of Peter Sellers. And Kubrick is played by Stanley Tucci and you're and he just kind of plays him as just as kind of this little weirdo. And you're just like, this is this is insane. Like who is this guy? And that's, that's kind of the Kubrick magic is, is you, you're forced to focus on his art because you know almost nothing of the man himself. And that's, that's kind of the, the whole notion that I've heard other actors espouse, including a, a, a very problematic person who used to be a fave Kevin Spacey.

28:44 He's like, I try to show you as little of myself as possible, so it all comes through in the character, when in reality the reason he wasn't showing you much is because he was a fucking criminal. And what's funny is like, I feel like Kevin Spacey is always showing himself right when he's playing. Like Kevin. Like, you have such a poor read on yourself, honey, darling, Like you are so coming. Like you're playing, you're playing a smarmy douchebag in every movie you're in. And guess what? You're a smarmy douchebag. Yeah, But from what you read, like to meet with Stanley was to be summoned. Like, he didn't come to you. And I will say, like, respect to that. Like, he didn't come to you. You came to him in a helicopter to his private estate, which he left the United States after making Spartacus because he was like, man, I'm done with Hollywood. This isn't like, this system doesn't work for me. I'm going to go do my thing.

29:40 And I know we're saying like recluse, like he didn't see people, like he wasn't a Howard Hughes type. Like he and his wife, they entertained a lot. They didn't necessarily go out. But when you see their estate, it's about the size of a small town and. Fucking palatial. Yeah, it's pretty incredible. So but they would like routinely have people over and see would entertain them there. He wouldn't fly, hated driving and from what I read, and again this is conjecture, by the end of it he wouldn't go over 35 miles an hour in a car and by the end of his life he was wearing a crash helmet when he would ride passenger which I. Feel so seen.

30:29 I feel so seen. Like true, like it's all true. It's all fact. And yeah, flying sucks. I did it today. Driving sucks. Also did that today. 2 of 10 don't recommend. I like driving. Wearing a crash helmet. Yeah, I I rode with my niece. It was an interesting scenario. So I, I feel like he's hitting the marks there. But yeah, I, I think it is worth noting that yes, he was reclusive and more, I would say introverted. He didn't really want to play by other people's kind of social rules. He wanted to create them and be on the turf where he could lay kind of the foundation.

31:18 And so when I, I think that I really love the note about people being summoned because it did feel like if he like, if he called upon you that you were kind of in his fold and that was something that, you know, you're not going to have a lot of people say was a bad thing. I mean, even later in life, Shelley Duvall said like, hey, if it went down. But I respect the man, the hardcore. I understand the artistry. And to be in his presence was really, really beneficial to me in a lot of different ways. But you can't like, it's you can't really extract those two things. But yeah, I, he's, I think that's why, like the documentary, I think that is voiced over by Tom Cruise that came out right after his death of Life in Pictures. It's just basically like a look back at these vignettes of him in filmmaking mode because that's really just how people knew him.

32:23 Yeah. They didn't know Stanley the man. They knew Stanley Kubrick filmmaker. Yeah. He was really He's the kind of guy who let a lot of people. In no either he was like I just, I wish I could let people know him. I'm a Juggalo, but he just wouldn't. Like he was like Stanley Kubrick was a Juggalo, but he just didn't want to let people know that that would have been I. God. Think that would have been? One of the weirdest things that I think we found out after he died was that he would have Fago shipped. Yeah. He used to England on the regular just so that he could keep up with that Juggalo lifestyle. Yeah, that would have been so. Oh, God.

33:04 Here we. I've sent it off the rails. I apologize. So he was married three times. In 1948, he marries his high school sweetheart, Toba Mets. They divorced after about three years. In 1952, he marries like an Austrian born dancer, Ruth Sabatka. And I'm sorry, Sabatka, thank you. And not only was she's a dancer, she was kind of a New York socialite. It seems like this is when he kind of gets introduced to a lot of the power players, like she's responsible for making introductions and getting his art out there.

33:45 But they also divorced. It didn't seem like a happy marriage. And then in 1958, he married a German actress and painter, Christian Harlan, and they remain married into his death. Like that was the love of his land. Her paintings actually are the ones that like hang in eyes Wide Shut, like she does that. So and I think she's still in charge of like the Kubrick estate as well. So but you know, it's and you see this in a lot of his films, like men who don't necessarily understand women. And like the your point to Nicole, you mentioned Shelley Duvall, like it seems like years later, like she was even came out and said like, stop telling my story. Like, she's like, the experience was not nearly as bad as everyone's making it out to be.

34:33 Didn't ruin like, Duvall would say it didn't ruin her. There was like a myth for a long time that like, she did The Shining and then had a breakdown and that was it. And like, no, she went on to become, like, an acclaimed producer of children's television, where she won a number of Emmys. Like she went on to have like, still a pretty storied career. Yeah. And I don't think, you know, to that, you know, the quit telling my story, especially as a woman, like, Hey, stop putting all of these things into my narrative because I'm not the one that's telling it. And so I I respect that.

35:15 And at the same time, you know, even at its most kindest take, he was still just a really blatant asshole. Yeah. And I think, but at the same time, the thing that I always wrestle with Kubrick is that he would be like, yes, I am an asshole, but please look at my movie. And I like to me, I it kind of contradicts. Like I try to live my life with the motto of don't live your life like a Sinner and expect to be remembered as a St. It was something that my. No, that's beautiful. My grandpa always would say, and I feel like Kubrick was really brushing up against that to be like, I'm gonna do both, and here's how.

36:07 Like, don't think about me. Don't think about the Sinner. Just know that the Sinner is there, but don't think about it. Think about the artist. Think about what the Sinner is doing on his off time, his hobby. And yeah, like, it's cool, right? You like this story? I I just love just just how weird he is. I remember we had a movie marathon. My friend Brett does movie marathons fairly frequently, and they're all themed and they're all day long. And in 2012, we did the apocalypse as it was the apocalypse, in case anyone didn't remember. Yeah, we lived through an apocalypse Part 8. We sure did.

36:58 And so we watched one of the movies that were part of the lineup was this Doctor Strangelove. And I had recommended it. I was really excited. And it was the movie that everyone took their break. Everyone's like, yeah, we're going to go get food. We're going to go make a store run, go get some more booze. Hey, there's a there's a ping pong table over there and I was pointed. In your friends, Nicole. This is so good and so interesting. And so I just like how he just didn't really give a shit about what other people thought about him. He just wanted to say this is what I think about humanity and people and how they interact and the strangeness.

37:45 Yeah. Kind of a bleak outlook overall for for a lot of his filmography, but I think but again, I think that is what kind of helps him to form into the artist that he is and the artist that he becomes. And the fact that he was allowed to be because of his past successes, because of stuff like Full Metal Jacket and Doctor Strangelove, he's allowed to be so uncompromising to the point of what feels like psychological torture in a lot of in a lot of situation. And one may classify as psychological torture, like, you know, that that kind of becomes his stock and trade by this point in his career.

38:25 I think where I wrestle sometimes in terms of how he had like this much unchecked power was it wasn't like all of his movies were financial successes right out of the gate and even critical successes right out of the gate. Like there's, you know, his movie before this, which had been, I mean, it's 13 years in between films. But he does Full Metal Jacket, which is almost a comeback movie for him in that it does like 130 million and it like quadruples its budget. But The Shining didn't even break even and at the time was not like a well reviewed movie.

39:07 Like if I remember correctly, like Barry Lyndon is not necessarily like a commercial success and he's like so far in between. So it's I think I have the. Fucking masterpiece. I love OK. So much. I haven't seen it. And again, like I, I have like watched a half dozen of his films and I I don't want to say I don't like I do like I might love a Clockwork Orange. I do like really like the shining. I love, love, love, love the killing like it has one of the best last lines ever in a film. And I think this is going to be a movie I come to love like right. So upon second watch, I'm like, I appreciate this more. Like I can see adding this to the rotation. And you know, I don't know, maybe we planned like an Eyes Wide Shut night, one night with friends, who knows? But like, I struggle.

39:58 I don't embrace his work like I do like, say, a Martin Scorsese where I think what I think. And it's not just Scorsese's films. Like I think of that cameo he does in Curb Your Enthusiasm when Larry David is like, do you even know what the fuck you're doing? And like, I could never see, I could see Spielberg doing that cameo, but not Stanley Kubrick, if that makes sense. And maybe that's just like a me thing because. He won't leave England. I mean, that's but no, I I agree. I think there is a self seriousness to Kubrick and I think that shows up in his work very often. I think the only time, and I think the only time he really showcases his sense of humor is Doctor Strangelove. He's got a fucking weird sense of humor, if that movie is any indication.

40:44 To be clear, I love it. And that's another one of those movies that the more I watch it, the more I love it. And I already loved it, but like, it's just kind of one of those that grows on me all the time. Brian would argue that The Shining and Eyes Wide Shut are meant to be seen as comedies as well, and I don't know about that so much. I don't know if The Shining is meant to be funny. We'll get to The Shining one day. We'll do do the both Shining versions and we'll do Doctor Sleep one day, I think. Like we'll have with the Mcgarris, but yeah. I mean, it's not good, but we have to do it as part of the. I understand. You're in a you know, I think you're mad at Mcgarris because his hair is fucking lovely.

41:26 I mean, look, I don't have a bad head of hair when I actually take care of it. I just don't take care of. It OK and I would rather. Shave it. Which is probably why I don't. Take care of it. My daughter told me today that I have like a really nice head of hair and that was really sweet. All right, moving on. The original novella written in 1926 by Arthur Schnitzler, Dream Story. Has any either of you? I've never read this of either of you. Nicole, if you read this OK, it pretty much follows the book except in like the action is in Mardi Gras or like the carnival carnival season. And it's a Doctor Who gets the shocking discovery that like shock among shocks, his wife is had sexual fantasies about other men.

42:13 So he wanders the streets of Carnival in like a dream, like haze. And it's like a novella. It's 120 pages. And, like, the action of Eyes Wide Shut for the most part, like follows the book. And it's like rife with a lot of Freudian illusions. And I'm not a Freudian therapist. I don't really truck with a lot of his theories. Like, I will leave that to others, you know, like, yeah. But it's, it's a book that Kubrick gets like in like 1960 or so and he like, immediately wants to make this like, he gets the rights for it. And like we said, it's a long road to adaptation. He basically gave this book to every single writer that he ever met and was like, can you crack this for me? Crack.

43:04 This. Yeah. And when they would give them his ideas, he would be like, no, I don't want to do that. And they're like, well, that's cool. Thank you for wasting my time. Appreciate that. Anyway. Yeah, thanks buddy. I think the, I can't think of her name, but she worked on AI for him. When he gave, she was like doing like some script polishing on AI. And when he gave her the book and she's like, yeah, I'm not really into it. He never spoke with her again. He completely caught her out of his life like. Sounds about right. She's like, great. So, and I think it's, it's fair to say like we've talked about, like Kubrick was like notoriously insecure around women and sex and.

43:45 I think chosen this movie honestly. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. The. Fact that this movie is about and the book itself is about a guy who just can't handle the fact that his wife did horny sometimes yeah like that's kind of like that speaks and I. You know, I mentioned earlier insecurities with Kubrick with regard to his own talent and ability. I think that can extend far beyond just that. Maybe he's insecure in a lot of other areas as. Well, who I I think from like what doing some reading the thing with Kubrick is like what fascinated him was like what other men could do that he himself would find like unfathomable. Like he could not picture himself acting in such a way.

44:25 So he wanted to like really like hyper analyze the motives of like other men in particular. I don't think it's that women didn't interest him. I think it's just like women confounded him to such a degree that he's like, I'm not even going to bother. But I, I honestly think like, and I think at one point like Christian, like when he was like, Hey, should I adopt this book? She like flat out told him, like, you're way too insecure to make this book. Like this will ruin our marriage if you try because you will bring all of your own shit into it. And read far which it'll cause massive problems. So she was like discouraging him like early on, like you do not want to do this.

45:08 Seems like she had a better feel for like she she was more aware of who he was than he was. Yeah. You know, Mark of a good, good partner, I suppose. But yeah. OK, OK, we'll keep going here. So in the 70s, Kubrick picks up the idea again, thinking like he originally wanted to make, like, a raunchy comedy for this. Like, you just do it as like, a Doctor Strangelove style comedy. And then that idea goes away in the 70s. He's like, what if we put Woody Allen in the lead and it wasn't. Yeah. And it was like, And that idea quickly, like, you fell by. He's like, well, you could understand why Woody Allen's wife would cheat on him basically. Like he's like realizes he needs someone who's not like this how he sees himself really.

45:57 Like he wanted Woody Allen because he saw a lot of himself in him. So then the idea shifts like what if we just do an out and out farce and we tell you, Nicole, we're just talking about like some of the what didn't happen with this. So basically we came down to the conclusion that like Stanley Kubrick, he only, he makes movies about people's behaviors that he himself could not engage in and found like really unfathomable. So he was trying to work his shit through that. And if you want to add to that, feel free. Yeah, I mean, I think again, it speaks to the alien nature of Kubrick of life. Let me let me explore this by this story and let me let me put these pieces together and see what happens. And I think that's just something that's really fascinating to me, particularly about this movie is like how long he had set with it, what it was saying about relationships and how he, I don't know, like you just kind of want to like pick his brain and be like, what was the ticking piece to this for you?

47:06 Right? Like what set this off? What's? The antithesis of right what you know, because he's intentionally like engaging with that which he does not know as a means of dissecting it and attempting to understand it. And again, as someone who we've mentioned is kind of semi reclusive, hard to know, maybe a bit introverted. I think he's fascinated by human behavior and what would make a person do this thing, this thing that I would never could never am too insecure to what what would cause a person to do that. And that kind of prompts. I think not just this movie, but probably a few of his others as well for really for really into it. Yeah, I mean, that's Doctor Strangelove right there. Like what would what would make you want to blow up with the world? And it's like boils down to I understand like the waters making the frogs gay.

47:53 Like that is my understanding of like that movie we're. Attempting to harvest our precious bodily fluids. OK, so again I need to sit. I need to sit down with this as soon as possible. Deny women Mandrake, but I do deny them my. Yeah, so, So what about like Steve, Steve Martin in the bill role? Like, how do we feel about coming off the jerk like a young? Oh God. Swore the Steve Martin in a farcical sex comedy based on this. Are we digging it? I mean he was in little shops as the dentist. That's. True. And he did a different take on that character for Novocaine.

48:35 Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I mean, I, I think that he, Steve Martin is an interesting actor and that he's very good at what he does and he does what he does, but there is this darkness to him that I just am enthralled by. Sure. And. Not too many people have really explored it to the extent that we would kind of want them to. Yeah, So I could see him, like if he was, you know, young, scrappy and hungry for a role like this, I could see him go in real hard. And this is 1970s like Steve Martin, like coming off the jerk, coming off of like we're a wild and crazy guy, like the arrow through the head, you know, playing the ukulele. Steve Martin.

49:26 This is not like the Steve Martin would come to know Steve Martin. Yeah. It's not that. It's not parenthood. It's not. It's not the guy who. Shows up and plays the banjo, right? Or, you know, sells out a hall in New York to talk about artwork that he likes, right? This is, yeah, a very different. And I almost wonder, like, what if that young Steve Martin had gotten a semi serious role or a role that kind of allowed him to stretch out or to work with a director like Cooper? How would that have worked? I mean, you see it, I think the best, a young Adam Sandler connecting with Paul Thomas Sanderson, like that same kind of energy. Do you know what I mean? Like with the guy who's known or the voices and the guy who would go on to work with like the Safdie's like that that and now Noah Bum book like that like.

50:12 Who's getting Oscar buzz? For he better yeah. Oh, I'm so I. Hope. He's here for it. But I hope he gets the nomination of nothing else 'cause he is so good in that movie. Like so good in that. Movie, right, So, but this would have been like more of a like getting back to cause like we're going to go 7 hours tonight. This getting back to like my first client will walk in my office as we just wrap things up here and sounds about right. But like getting back, it would be a parody of like, you know, pornographic films of the time, which people went on date nights to. Like people were going on dates to see Deep Throat and Behind the Green Door and the Devil and Miss Jones. Like it wasn't necessarily his taboo. And I think like they said, like Hubrick would like write a bunch of like fake tag lines, like she gave everything to him and her 20 million viewers, like 20 million other people. Like it was going to be like a send up of like pornographic films.

51:09 But then he decides like, well, that's probably not the right way to go and he can't figure out what to do. So back into the drawer the novella goes. Eventually in the early 90s, mid 90s, he connects with screenwriter Frederick Raphael. And would anyone like to maybe take this portion over? If anyone can discuss like is this is fascinating because Raphael ends up writing a tell all memoir called Eyes Wide Open of working with Kubrick on this, and he pitches this work three days after Kubrick dies.

51:51 That's ghoulish. I'm sorry, that is super ghoulish. Straight up ghoulish. And it's basically Raphael taking as many shots as possible at someone who can no longer defend himself. And, you know, Kubrick just tried to defend himself, but he couldn't because he was dead. So that just didn't allow him to do so. It was just. He tried to put in the effort, but there was just not much effort there to. Put in. Just couldn't. He was sitting on this like this is something he had in his back pocket. This is something he had been thinking about for a while, clearly to have the proposal ready within three days of his death. Oh, yeah, That's before the funeral. The funeral doesn't take place until March 12. He's pitching this on March 10th. Yeah, that's ghoulish.

52:36 That is, this is a guy who clearly had a plan in place, saw his opportunity and pounce. And that is kind of fucking evil. That's that. There's some. There's a sinister quality. And then he ate on it for years. You know what I mean? He ate out this memoir for years. So yeah. But he essentially like Kubrick like summons Raphael to his home and he convinces him like before the contract is even signed. He's like, you know what? Through sheer first personality, he convinces Raphael to write like the first 40s, like write the 1st 42 pages. That way if we I like it, we can move forward. If not, we'll know what we need to change.

53:19 Didn't know if anyone wanted to weigh in so I'll. This speaks again, you know, you asked the question at the beginning, does Kubrick know what he wants and does he have a vision? And I think that he does. And he kind of this is a test of like, are you, are we simpatico? Are we on the same page, not just in the same book, but are we on the same page with the ideas that we're extracting? And I think that this is kind of a maybe not the nicest way to go about it. I kind of understand why Raphael would have beef with the process.

54:01 I think what he did was just abysmal. Yeah. And like low form human action. But I think that this is very cool, Rick. It's like, all right, let me see how this human does with this text. I shall analyze it and then I shall see if can input into my computer brain and I can come to story. Well, and Kubrick has like some really specific not even requests like demands. He's like the characters can't be Jewish. And Kubrick himself was Jewish and it's kind of a thing where he would often strip characters of their Jewish identity.

54:46 And I think part of that, being acutely aware of like, anti-Semitism and coming up himself during like, the HUAC hearings, like, that's just something he didn't want to touch on at one point, like. Oh, sorry, I heard that. The reason the character is named Bill Harford is because he wanted like a Harrison Ford playing a goy. And so he Har Ford, Harrison Ford, Harford just kind of slammed the two together. And that's like that's what the character is. He's he's Harrison Ford playing the goy. Yeah. And that makes a lot of sense. But at one point, like, he was going to make a Holocaust film and he's like, I couldn't, can't do this. And he critiqued like Schindler's List when it came out saying, well, the Holocaust is not, you know, you're celebrating this movie because like 600 people were saved. But the horror is like 6,000,000 men and women died. Like, that is the true lesson.

55:40 Like not that like this one. It's not a triumph that Schindler saved 600 people. He had a hard time like reconciling that. So. But it's something he would often do in his work. It seemed like Raphael, like, was able to crack the code because he sends them the 1st 42 pages. And Kubrick says, I love this now all this time, like Raphael early on is like, I don't think this guy's very bright. He's like, there's a myth about him. He's like, he's a great director. But I think he says, like, I do not worry about being intellectually challenged by Kubrick is like one of the things he writes in his diary. And he's like, I fear that, like, the myth far outstrips the man.

56:24 He feels like that until Kubrick loves the 1st 42 pages. And he's like, no, he's a genius. He loves my work. He's a genius. And then Kubrick's like, will you work over Christmas? And he's like, no, I won't do that. Like, I'm going to go see family. And Kubrick's like, what do you mean you're not working over Christmas? Like, come on. And then he, I guess, played the Hanukkah song for Raphael, like on repeat on his answering machine until Raphael agreed to keep writing. That part didn't happen. Although now imagining Stanley Kubrick like singing along in a home karaoke den to Adam Sandler's The Hanukkah Song is just a vision I want. Well, Raphael makes the fatal mistake of completing the first draft and then sending it to his agency at William Morris in order to get paid.

57:17 Basically, like it's finished, let me get paid. Kubrick finds us out, sends it back unopened and says I was in such a state of despair that I don't even want to read this because I just won't. I'm so pissed off at you. How could you send this out? Who has it? How many copies are out there You need to track down Every single one in Raphael's response is like, I don't think anyone there even knows how to read, let alone have read your draft dude. It's like so you don't sweat and eventually like they make up and they continue the work. But what Kubrick when he reads it, it's like, I like the first 42 pages, everything else sucks you need to redo it all.

58:02 And then he tells him like like 7 drafts later we should probably make the 1st 42 pages not quite so good because everything else is so weak in comparison. To which my thing is like, I don't think he liked the first 42 pages. I think he like liked maybe some of it, but it wasn't the genius work that he said it was. He's like, I just got to keep this guy working and keep him on the hook. Do you know what if you hate everything else about it, like I don't think you really like it. Does that make sense? It does, and I mean it. It plays into my theory about kind of his own insecurities and needing to retain some modicum of power in the in the dynamic in the relationship in order to kind of prove that, you know, I'm, I'm the boss, I'm the guy you need to do, you know, please me, damn it. Yeah, and, and Kubrick doesn't want so much dialogue. He's like too much dialogue, too much talking. Give me voice over.

59:01 Because then you could just like, explicitly say what the characters are thinking rather than have like, interpretation. Wants less dialogue overall, basically. And Kubrick is rewriting Rafael. Rafael's rewriting his draft. Kubrick's rewriting that again. Eventually they hammer out a script and then, like the relationship, like many others, like the relationship is severed. Nicole, you look like you really want to weigh in. What do you got? Yeah, I mean, again, this is a perfect example of Kubrick saying, all right, this person not up to par. I need to come in with the swiftness, and this is the story that I want to make.

59:49 And I love that. I mean, again, yeah. He goes about it like, there's two different paths that you can take. There's like the human path. And then there's the I want to be the biggest asshole I can because I am not just a robot or an alien. I am also petty. Like I got the petty chip. And I love when Kubrick shows the petty chip because I think that that shows that he, you know, to be told. I mean, I think anyone to have someone say I'm not intellectually challenged by you, but I'm going to work for you. Like you kind of want to RIP out the heart from their chest and be like and say what now?

1:00:41 And I think the only thing I can say in Raphael's defense there was he would ask Kubrick, like, well, what do you want? And Kubrick's answer was kind of very non committal, like I don't really know. And that kind of followed through on like, as this film was getting made, it was like he didn't quite know what he wanted. And he was like, but I think like, to your point, Nicole, he was working through the process. But as he's doing that, he's making everybody else kind of sit with him for that, which is really, really hard. You know, like you're kind of wasting everybody's time at that point. Like have an idea. So obviously, like Raphael writes this book like it's like publishes an excerpt in The New Yorker. The I think we've LinkedIn the show notes like the article there, which is like it's a pretty fascinating read. And this book comes out and like Rodger Clark and his review of it kind of eviscerates Raphael, which and it's kind of an awesome quote.

1:01:38 Like Kubrick was hiring Raphael like a plumber. He wasn't interested in him and as a person he slave drove him into producing A largely polished script, which was then eviscerated and roughed up for the final version. Like that is, that is some words right there from one Rodger Clark and his review of The Independent, published August 2nd, 1999. But yeah, it is like a contentious relationship to be sure. Should we talk about casting? Yeah, let's. Steven, let's go. Let's do it. Kubrick seemed pretty insistent at hiring a movie star, which is not really something he had done since The Shining in 1980. Pretty much everything he makes after that is honestly like a lot of kind of up and comers, people who hadn't really made it yet. And you know, in Full Metal Jacket, you get people like Matthew Modine and Vincent D'onofrio who would go on to be kind of big stars, but at the time they weren't names. But he's like, I want to work with a Hollywood star. I think knowing that that would help sell the movie and knowing that would get butts in seats.

1:02:42 But he only seems to consider, and I find this very interesting, a list Hollywood power couples. At one point, Alec Baldwin and Kim Basinger are being considered. Additionally, Bruce Willis and Demi Moore were being considered. Would have been a disaster. I don't, yeah. That's the, I think the version of this movie that works the least of the of these three versions that we're considering. The one we got, the one with Alec and Kim and the one with Bruce and Demi. I think the Bruce and Demi one is the one that just doesn't work. Not that I don't think either of them couldn't play it, but it mixes it plays with the formula a little like Demi's already kind of done something like this with Indecent Proposal. Bruce Willis couldn't do this. I think I think Bruce Willis is a better actor than most people give him credit for.

1:03:23 He got pigeon holed into a lot of action roles and then kind of metastasized into that later like and by the late 90s, late 90s, he's doing shit like. 6th Sense. 6th Sense. Unbreakable stuff like. That like, he's still great and still being able to pull off serious roles, but this just doesn't feel like the kind of role that's right for him. Well, I think that you also have to understand the cult of personality around these couples too. It wasn't just that these were acting couples and they had all of these accolades around their acting. These were couples. They were on the cover of magazines. They were as much in the spotlight for being together and for their romantic relationship and their kind of tiffs here and there as they were for their acting. And so I think that that was really about you have these two people working kind of in similar fields, you know, of, you know, similar kind of placement to some degree within kind of the food chain of their industries, but the gender breakdown of that and the expectations. And so This is why I almost pushed back and think that the Bruce Willis and Demi Moore would have been really interesting because Bruce Willis plays a very like he has, I think of all of these

1:04:55 characters, the more macho, yeah, very true piece. And So what happens when you just get that like rubbed in your fucking face? I think that that could have been just. Wild. Okay, okay. Look, I you will not find a bigger fan of Bruce Willis as a movie star than me. I think Bruce Willis is maybe my favorite movie star. I love Bruce Willis and I think he can. I think he never got a fair shake to really reach his full potential in terms of what he could do as an actor. Like because he was, he's insanely funny and he's incredibly charismatic. And I think at some point he just decided this is what you want from me, this is what I'm going to give you and stopped trying to the extent that he really was able and stopped, I think seeking out the roles where people would quote UN quote, take him seriously and just decided to lean into the Bruce Willis thing.

1:05:55 And I look, I get paid, Bruce get paid like when he did the there was a the the die hard battery commercial that he did several years ago. Like I remember reading someone's like, I cannot believe we've sunk to the point where Bruce Willis is making battery car battery commercials. And I'm like, I can't believe they made his quote because Bruce Willis is famously like a this much per day. And this is what you get from me. And I'm like, I'm just like, I can't believe they they, they matched his quote for this commercial. Like that seems insane to me. But no, I like, I love Bruce Willis. I, I am really sad that we won't be getting more Bruce Willis movies. He's he's one of my all time favorites. I'm one of those people who I know it's bad, but I kind of love Hudson Hawk. That's the kind of Bruce Willis fan I am. So just to kind of peek behind the curtain there. But yeah, I, I love Bruce Willis and I, again, I feel like this version would have been in his version would have been interesting.

1:06:46 But again, I think of the three pairings that we that we have, I think it's probably the one that doesn't work quite as well. What do we think he would have committed to the time that Tom and Nicole did for this movie? The only thing that I would then ask both of you is that another stand out of these three couples is that they divorced. And there were, I would say with the exception of Bruce and Demi, they had kind of tumultuous divorces. Yeah. And so, you know, I think there may have been like some back and forth with Bruce and Demi at the very beginning, but they have always been very much in each other's corner, very much about Co parenting and very much like, yeah, we're not together, but you know, we will. Sign up for the Comedy Central roast of Bruce Willis. So like she showed up for that and like, well, it doesn't tell me like how much they love each other. Like even if it's not romantic they they still. Both, sure.

1:07:51 Clearly love each other. You look at. Go ahead, Nicole. I was just gonna say like, I, I, I just knowing kind of the where these couples are now. Yeah. It just kind of makes me think like what? Like, does that impact how we feel about? Yeah, I mean, this is the thing with like Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman is he basically chose Scientology over her. I mean, that's really what it comes down to is like he got more and more involved with Scientology, more drawn in, and he essentially chooses Scientology over Nicole Kidman, which is crazy to me.

1:08:33 Kind of insane to me too. And like, we Alec Baldwin like was horrifically abusive at the very least, like emotionally abusive to Kim Basinger, like just. But yeah, it is it. How many like happily married Hollywood couples are there? Like when we say, well, they got divorced. Like that's you could throw like a dart and a board and you're going to wind up on like a divorced Hollywood couple. Like just they don't stay together like they're apart for so long. You get chemistry with your other coast. Like that lifestyle's not conducive to that. You know, I think it's not any George Clooney doesn't get married. And so he like really slows down his acting career and that's when he settles down like Adam Sandler. Like I keep bringing Adam Sandler up just because he's awesome.

1:09:23 Is like one of the few, like super happily like. And he makes movies where he just brings his wife and kids with him and now his kids act in his movies. And Brian, I love it. Well, he's like he seems he's got it figured out. Well, I think that though, even, I mean, the ones that you have kind of framed are interesting because they they kind of buck this trend. But for me, whenever someone is like, oh, you know, think of this amazing couple that wouldn't we be devastated if they were to separate, you know, like Rita and Tom, we love Rita Wilson and Tom Hanks, right? But they got together via cheating on the set of a movie. And this is the story of so many of these really timeless, lovely relationships where you are exactly right, Mike. I just assume that any Hollywood person, like if you are in a relationship, that relationship has an open door policy in some way, shape or form there.

1:10:25 You can't, you cannot be months and months and months, two years away from your family and expect to have that relationship nurtured. And I feel like that's almost something that Kubrick is wanting to like prick at a little bit to be like, what happens when ego and aspirations and all of this kind of collide in the bedroom? And what does it mean? And so I, I don't know, I, I just find it interesting that all of these couples at the time were kind of like these landmarks, like out and about always getting packed during this time.

1:11:11 Couples hot, hot to trot. And now we look back and we're like what the fuck was their relationship? My. You know another power couple they could have chosen Tom Green and Drew Barrymore. Now you're telling me you wouldn't want to see Tom Green directed by Stanley Kubrick at this time? Mike. Freddy's. Exactly what I'm telling you. Freddy Got Fingered zone Tom Green. I fucking love Tom Green. All right. Sorry that. The least surprising thing you've said this episode? I love Tom Green. Very clear. He's the songbird of our generation. Anyway, continue. John Turturro says in an interview actually earlier this year that the role of Nick Nightingale was intended for him, written for him.

1:11:59 Kubrick reaches out to Turturro and says, hey, I'm going to send you the script. You're going to love it. I wrote it, this role for you. And Turturro basically says, yeah, I love it, let's see what happens. And because he doesn't say yes, I will do this no matter what. Kubrick's like oh he must not be interested in moves on in past hot field instead, which I find hilarious that John Turturro. If you don't, listen to the summon. If you don't, yeah, heed the call. Right. Then the failing is yours. We live. We serve and live at the pleasure of Stanley Kubrick. We do be very clear about that, all of us. We whether or not we realize it or not, even though he has been dead low these many years. 20.

1:12:41 We still do, still live and serve at the beck and call, at the pleasure of Stanley Kubrick. Harvey Keitel is originally cast as Victor Ziegler, the the colleague of Tom Cruise, kind of the his aspirational figure. Keitel basically just gets fed up with Kubrick and the quits perfectionism and just yeah, just says fuck you. I I don't like being disrespected. I'm out. Gary Oldman says later, like he didn't like he kind of recounts the the Tom Cruise 95 takes through the door thing and then that was what ultimately broke Keitel. He says, you know, fuck you, I I can't. Work like this, I think takes off the breaking point was like a month into the shoot. Kubrick like he the the setting, like the the pinocchiolet scene between like Pollock and Cruz and that like room that smells like money.

1:13:32 Like, yeah, Kubrick walks in, looks at the set and is like, I hate it. Tear it all down, rebuild it, which is going to take two months and they're already filming. And finally, Keitel, like I can't believe Harvey Keitel, especially late mid to late 90s Harvey Keitel, who said like a second career peak doesn't just like literally beat the shit out of him. Like I'm expecting him to like throttle this old man at that point. And but he's like, I'm not doing this because especially he's like, no one can work on anything else. One thing he told Raphael was like, I don't want you to write anything else. You get paid for when you're writing the script.

1:14:14 Not a newspaper article, not a review, not a novella. Like you can only work on this, which is crazy. It's like, but I'm not getting paid. And that's he expects that of his cast as well. Like you cannot work on anything. We'll get into that here. That is, I think what the breaking point was for Kaitel. Not even not the 95 takes, but the tear this whole thing down and take months to rebuild it. Meanwhile, you're sitting here not making money. Yep. So he gets replaced by director Sydney Pollack, who I do think is really good in this movie. Yeah, Pollack is great at. Much different role, much different performance than you would. Very different. Take on the character for sure. Yeah, yeah, Keitel would have brought a menace to the role that I think Pollack hints at towards the end.

1:15:00 It would always would have been there with Keitel. Which I kind of like. I think that Pollock gets the swarmy part of it in a way that Keitel cuts through with that menace. I love, I love that phrasing. I think he is just scary. Like, even if he's like being your best friend and saying the nicest things in the entire world, telling you about how he loves puppies and balloons, I think you are sitting there thinking of this motherfucker's going to slit my throat at. Any moment you're like, what do you like to do with puppies and balloons? Like what team? Do you? Well, and it's kind of like. Balloons like What are you doing? Maybe I deserved it, and that's OK. This is the way that we go.

1:15:42 But Pollock brings that rich smarmy, like I'm really in the thick of it. And you understand why Cruz, why Bill is really kind of taken in by him for that because I think if it was more menacing, you would see him I think kind of butt up against the. Pollock gives off the vibe that, like, he's never had a real human relationship in his life and everybody is kind of beneath him. Like, everything is transactional. And I don't know if Kaitel necessarily would have done that. Like, you get that kind of like, back slapping life is mine for the taking with Pollock.

1:16:25 And Pollock would push back on like, one thing he says in an interview was like, if I had to do more than like 10 takes on something like, that was a tragedy. Like, it screwed and I screwed something up. And he would, like, tell he's like, I did not do 30 takes on anything because I just wouldn't do it. I would tell. I would tell Kubrick, like, this is what you're going to get. Like, I can't do it any better. And I think because he was also looking director of high esteem, that Kubrick was like, OK, that's fine. But he witnessed a lot of what? A lot. To do with it because Pollock is at this point already an incredibly decorated director who's won multiple Oscars at this point. Like he he won for Out of Africa. Whether or not he should have is a different story. Like he won two Oscars for that movie, but he's like nominated for Tootsie.

1:17:15 Like he is an incredible and a substantial and very famous and brightly so. Director Ghost directed Howard the Duck did not do that. Wish that. Were true. I did not do that. I own Howard the Duck on 4K my. I own it on Blu-ray, so you're ahead of me. I yeah and, and Pollock had already worked with Tom Cruise at this point. They. For the firm. Correct in 93, Yeah, he. Recommended he, I, I, I, I think it was Pollock who recommended cruise to or it could be the other way around. That's one of those two. But yeah. And then he goes on to direct Nicole Kidman in the interpreter a few years later.

1:17:58 I think that one of the things to it, going back to the casting, what makes Tom Cruise probably a really attractive fit for this role, too, especially in comparison to I think, Willis and Baldwin, is, you know, you mentioned roles like the Firm, A Few Good Men. You know, these are roles where, you know, Cruz has charisma. No one's ever going to counter that. Like the man has charisma. This is this is how he signs his checks, to be honest. But The thing is, is that he's not, you know, it's so strange to say this about a cult leader. He's not that scary.

1:18:41 Yeah. Like he's just not scary. So I think having all of these, you know, I think that Pollock was probably like, Hey, I don't have to play with this because this is a guy who is, you know, who can have charisma and have that power, but it's still kind of subdued by the status, like the, the kind of patriarchy in and of itself, which is a strange thing. So I, I don't know, having Sydney Pollack really makes this film kind of go to the next tier. As much as I love Kaito, yeah.

1:19:21 Sure. No, I completely agree. A couple more casting notes, Jennifer Jason Lee was originally cast as the the woman whose father dies at the beginning. And it's like, I love you. I want you like I will do anything for you. And then she ends up dropping out to to do existence with, with Cronenberg, a great, great film that she is actually wonderful in. So I feel like she made the right choice. She's replaced by Swedish actress Maria Richardson in that kind of really great one scene performance. And then the last casting note, Alan Cumming in what might be my favorite scene of the movie at the at the hotel. He's the the clerk at the hotel.

1:20:02 He says he had to audition 6 separate times for Kubrick before he ended up getting the role. Like he like the audition process was very arduous for what is ostensibly A1 scene role. But again, that's the kind of perfectionism that Kubrick's going for. But coming is so fucking good in this movie. I love him so much. And I also have to give a shout out to Lili Sobieski. Oh yes. In this movie, because she talk about kind of taking a scene and making it about you, she is so unhinged in her role and I love it. Yeah. She's always one of those actors that I just, I struggle with because I'm like, there's so much there and why? Why am I?

1:20:50 Why do I not see you everywhere? Why? She laughed on her own accord, like she was like this is not the life for. Me. Yeah, yeah. And. I respect that, but I'm just like, God damn it, you were in. Some. Really. Yep. Banger roles, yeah, and. And I love Rachel Beija as well. The actor that plays her father is so good. I love every time that guy shows up, I'm like, OK, I can just relax because I'm in good hands. This is kind of exactly what he's doing right now. Yeah. This is Alan Cummings. Like, says that Kubrick didn't know he was British. Like when they meet on set, he's like, wait a minute, like you, you're not American. He's like, yeah, I know. I know. He's like, yeah, Scottish.

1:21:31 Thank you. He's like, but you have an American accent. You you didn't have a Scottish accent in your edition. He's like, yes, I'm an actor. And like at that point, like Kubrick got along with him Grace, like I never had a hard time with him because he actually he was like fuck what the fuck dude. Like you had me auditioned 6 times and you're mad that I fooled you? Like that's my job. And he says he never had a problem with them after that. He had a good time. In post production, they had to replace the actress who had done the voice of the you know, the woman who sacrifices herself in the orgy for for Bill with Cate Blanchett. Yep, because the person that they originally cast could not pull off an American accent.

1:22:15 So that is Cate Blanchett. Like, I think she's is gonna win her Oscar like the next year for Elizabeth, her first Oscar for Elizabeth, like. And I'm just like, that's that. Yeah. To me like that you. And that was apparently something that was done after Kubrick had passed away deep in post production. They're trying to figure it out. And Tom and Nicole are like, oh, you should get Cate Blanchett. She's really. Good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The originally wanted Fran Drescher, but they were turned down. That would have been amazing. What are you doing here? Hey, if we want to talk about Christmas movies that we can cover the Fran Drescher classic Santa's sleigh. Oh.

1:22:58 I don't even know that one. Starring Bill Goldberg, the slasher movie? Is that the one you're referring to? It is. We're not doing that movie. It is. I love you, Nicole. We're not. No, you can't go over Eyes Wide Shut to say you contain multitudes. I know, but. We did a Christmas in July. Nice. Movie marathon and we ended it at like 1:00 AM was Santa Sleigh and I had never been happier. Santa Sleigh. I'd never been happier. Nobody got up to play ping pong or get boos for that. Everybody was riveting. Everyone was passed out. Everyone was passed out except for me and my friend Brett was so mad that we were watching it and I just had the best time and pretty cool just in it your.

1:23:48 Hands together like the The man from another place from Twin Peaks. So on the other end of this, and you know, we were talking about Bill Goldberg, now we'll talk about the man who plays Bill, Tom Cruise. Can we talk about what? What a segue though, like. I'm pretty good at those. I am pretty good at those. Hubert gives Cruise the Shelley Duvall treatment. Basically during this movie, he's like, you know, that's pretty much the the, the treatment he gets here on set. Like he, and from what I understand about Tom Cruise, it's like he just wants to please people. Like, and it's funny, like we talked about, he has charisma.

1:24:31 He's not a cult leader, He's a cult spokesperson. And I think there's like a difference. Like he's the face, he's the he's he's the face, but he's not the face that runs the place. You know what I mean? Like there's like people behind the man, but at this time, like people knew he was a Scientologist. I think it's icky, but it wasn't so front and center. And he's ripping off films like The Color of Money, Cocktail, He's doing Rain Man. He's nominated for an Oscar for Bourne of the 4th July, A Few Good Men, The Firm, Interview with a Vampire, Which you know, like Anne Rice apologizes to him after that movie comes out. She's like, yeah, I was wrong.

1:25:11 Like she was like, so out and about saying like he's the wrong guy. And he gets nominated for Jerry Maguire for Cameron Crowe. And Crowe recently talked about his experience with Cruz on The Real Watchables where he's like, he read for the part. Like he's like, yeah, I'm interested. Can I come in and read for it? And Cameron Crowe is like, you're Tom Cruise, like you don't have to audition. It's like, no, I want to audition. And he did. And he's like every day. He was like the most infectious positive, like, what can I do guy on set? Nicole, you're shaking your head. That's a cult leader. Cult leaders are positive they want to bring. This is why everyone who says that when they worked with Tom, they're like the nicest person you could yeah ever want to meet.

1:26:03 So gracious, always smiles for days because he leads a cult. I am not denying he's I am not denying he's in a cult. Like I'm not don't mean to suggest. I just don't think he's necessarily the leader so much as like the out in front like spokesperson like he's your pitchman. He's like Bruce Willis selling die hard batteries but for like a crazy lizard religion. Funding it like he is the cash cow. Yeah, he, like David McCray, goes to him for the handouts. Yeah. Where is Shelley? Where is Shelley? I don't.

1:26:44 Never know. I don't. Care, David. Miss Miss Graybury's wife has been missing for OK. Got it. OK yeah, has been missing for decades. OK, now and no one knows, so no, I he is. But I think that that's again one of the things that just makes him such a a. Creep an. Interesting person to like delve into is that he is so positive and that butts up against roles like this where he has to go into some dark places. And I can understand maybe Kubrick's inclination to be like, oh, this is someone who seems happy. I must.

1:27:27 I must, I must destroy that. Take it but. I think from I. Must take it. From a performance standpoint, though, from like an actor standpoint, he's someone that can do like the top guns of the world, like he's the biggest movie star in the world. But he's also like wants to be and is like a serious actor. And you don't often get those like Brian. And I just did Back to the Future too today for the patrons. And we talked about Michael J Fox. And I think Brian put it great. He's like Michael J Fox was a star, but he wasn't necessarily like a serious actor, like because he was trying to do things like bright lights and big city and casualties of war.

1:28:08 And they didn't like that's not what people wanted to see. Cruz can flip between both. Like Cruz can get Oscar nominations. He can do that thing. And you're right, like maybe that is because he's funding A cult like he is that he wants to draw eventually. He's like, hey, I did all these great things for you. Now you get to come to like my crazy cult with me and drink the Kool-aid. Do some fucking auditing. Sure. I think the fascinating thing about Cruz in the though, and it starts in the 80s a little bit, is his he seeks out these directors and basically hands himself over to them and says use me, use me in a way that is interesting like and I think it starts after Top Gun, which is kind of his star making performance.

1:28:49 Immediately after that he does Color of Money with Martin Scorsese. He does a couple years after Rain Man with Barry Levinson, born on the 4th of July with Oliver Stone, Days of Thunder, reuniting with Tony Scott, Far and Away with Ron Howard, a Few Good Men with the late Rob Reiner. RIP 93 He does The Firm with Sydney Pollack, Interview with a Vampire, Mission Impossible with Brian Depalma, Jerry Maguire with Cameron Crowe, Eyes Wide Shut with Stanley Kubrick, and then Magnolia with Paul Thomas Anderson into the 2000s. He he does Mission Impossible 2 with John Woo back to. And De Palma on De Palma on the first Mission Impossible, right? And he's not franchise Tom Cruise at this time. Like he's doing different roles.

1:29:32 Like he wants to be like the biggest best actor in the world. And he basically says, like if Stanley Kubrick ever says will you be in a movie with for me, I will say yes no matter what. Like there's no way else. He's the anti John Tuturro was like, I just need a day to think about it and then gets moved on. Kidman is working in England on Portrait of a Lady, I think with Jane Campion. And so the two of them like, let's go meet with Kubrick. Let's just go, go talk to him. And so they go to his house, and on the strength of that meeting, he cast them both in this movie. Yeah. Like, that's how they get in here is because they both respond to the summons and basically pay homage to the great Stanley Kubrick. And it works.

1:30:16 What say you, Nicole? Yeah, I think that this is such an interesting dynamic between Kubrick, Kidman and Cruz because once they enter into, once they and say heed the summon, their relationship is never really the same. Not to say that we know all the insurance and outs of it before, but this is the down turn of their relationship, full stop. Yeah. And this was the couple. I mean, you have them coming off of this film. You have right around this time, you know Kidman is going in to Moulin Rouge. You have just all these things happening for both of them professionally, and it should be amplifying the star power to like the next echelon.

1:31:14 But instead Kubrick comes in and it's like, no, relationships seem weird, so let me destroy this and let me see what happens. And it feels like in order for him to be able to direct a couple whose marriage is in trouble, he has to himself insert himself into their marriage and put it in jeopardy in order to kind of fuck with shit. Like the story about him filming Nicole Kidman sex scenes with the actor playing the the sailor. Like he filmed those in isolation over the course of three days and forbid Nicole Kidman from discussing anything that they shot that day with her husband who was in fact her Co star. Like that is. What you can't do, I mean, how do you enforce that? Like that's an UN.

1:32:00 How do you enforce something like that? Do you know what I mean? Like that is. But by the same token, you can't. But by the same token, we've seen how incensed he gets when someone sends a script to the wrong place. Like it's one of those things like, I think if they both respect him enough, and I think they both do that they're not going to put in, they're not going to do anything to jeopardize it. And I think Cruz above all, like you said, he's he's a collaborative guy. He wants to show up. He wants to please his director. Like this is the reason he seeks out working with these guys is he wants to learn as much as he can about the craft. And so he is malleable. He is, he says for me, use me, do what you need to with me. And so I think he probably was more keen to enforce the don't tell Me than she might have been. And he and the other thing is like Cruz won't push back at all.

1:32:51 He will not push back at all. Like he's doing 95 takes of walking through a door and he's like, and that was like the closest he came to like breaking. He has to do like 30 something takes of like leaning towards like the body in the morgue. Like I need you to lean over a different way for the shot. They do 30 something takes of it. And all this time Kubrick is like Nicole is a thoroughbred. You're a roller coaster in terms of like referring to their acting performances, meaning like she's much more steady than you are. He's like, you're all like boyish personality. You're all charm, you're all charisma. You can't really act. Nicholson could act like you can't fucked an act Peter Sellers could act.

1:33:31 You're no Peter Sellers. He starts like he starts referencing on set the rumors that have floated around Tom Cruise for years and he's gay. He started like you. See like the scene in this? The scene in that which is comes out of nowhere and serves no purpose in the movie whatsoever except to like, kind of like poke it cruises insecurities about that. He has them attend separate counseling sessions to talk about, like, any marital discord and again, forbids them to speak of it. They move into the onset bedroom in, like, Pinewood Studios. Like, that's where they like, they live on set at points.

1:34:12 Yeah. And all along the way, like Cruz is like, this is a miserable shoot. And like Cruz is being asked about it and he's like, Nope, it's great. Like, what are you talking about? Working with Kubrick is the best. This is fan fucking tastic. I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah. It's like it's either this, it's like, it's like this is a lot shorter than like scrubbing decks with a toothbrush for a billion years for the Lizard King. So really. Well, I do have to say though, that one thing I want to make sure is understated is that Nicole and Tom had their relationship issues probably percolating. Oh, of course. Well before they walked into the door for their first meeting. I do not want to insinuate that Kubrick was like, let me tear apart this completely happy and stable relationship. They had obviously gone through a lot, which we all learn now years after the fact.

1:35:12 But I think that, again, Kubrick, for someone who doesn't really understand people, has this very weird read on people where he's like, I know what I can get out of them. I know to what level I can push them. And if they're just not gonna go, they're not gonna go. And I can replace them easily with someone else that will go to that place. Do you buy There was like a rumor that percolated for years. So like, it was a sham marriage that like Kidman was after Crews, like divorces Mimi Rogers. And there are all these rumors about his sexuality that like Nicole Kidman is plucked out of relative obscurity at the time and said, marry this guy, we'll give you like 5 movies, you'll become a huge star and then you can divorce and do what you want.

1:36:03 Like that was one of the rumors that had floated around. I don't, I don't really believe that because I think they, you know, they were together for some time, although, you know, to kind of feed into the rumors. Well, they hit they hit that magic number for divorces in California. And so they, you know, there were always rumors, especially like the fact that they didn't have biological children. And then right after they divorced, they both have biological children with their next partners. And so it's one of those things that, yeah, I, I get the rumors, but I don't, you know, I, I don't think that even someone who really wants their come up is going to say, you know what, I'm going to sacrifice all of this for this because at the end of the day, there's just no certainty.

1:37:05 I can sit there and say, I'm going to, I'm going to cast you in 4 plays. Those plays could be terrible. And then what have you done? But I think there's like enough belief in herself because she's so immensely talented. She's like give me the opportunity and I will like she and she works with like us Fin Sant on to die for and this and she does Moulin Rouge, and I mean she's a star in her own right. Works with Jane Campion quite a bit. Tudes for like the serious stuff, Portrait of a lady, Top of the lake. Like she and Jane get along really well. Like she's in. I mean, I'm kind of looking at her filmography leading up to this. The two of them meet on Days of Thunder, which she gets off of the strength of Dead Calm and then she does Billy Bath Bathgate Far and away again, reuniting her with Tom Cruise for Ron Howard, Malice, the the weird Michael Keaton movie my life and then, of course, to die for which chef's kiss, one of her best performances, I think for my money.

1:38:02 And then chases that the same year with Batman forever. The next year does portrait of a lady of the Peacemaker of the year after that practical magic. And then Eyes Wide shut and follows that up with Moulin Rouge like and then the same year as that, she also has the others and birthday girl like she's on a tear, like she's doing great, great work and like and then wins an Oscar the year after that for the hours like and at that point she's cemented she's. Arrived. Yeah. So I'm going to suggest we fly through like a little bit of this so we can get to the movie proper. I apologize. I know we're going a bit. I'm going a bit long here and I'll just say that it was an arguable talk about Mike. It is.

1:38:42 And it was just it's, you know, like I feel like we're going to approach the 400 day continuous shoot. This what was planned as a three month shoot, then a six month shoot goes for over 400 days. There's like super low morale, morale on set. Cruise actually does go to Kubrick at least once and says, like, can you tell me at least if we're almost done? Because, like, I have to get back to Paramount. Like, they put Mission Impossible 2 on hold. He's like, people are waiting on me. Like, you got to let me know what's going on here. And Kubrick is like, eh, we get to, we get to it. And originally, Kubrick had convinced his daughter Vivian to score the film.

1:39:24 She then goes AWOL on him and he writes her a lot of letters and they just she never responds. She never hears from her again. She at that point, like it comes to find out later, like she had fallen under the spell of Scientology and like he was seen as like an unsupportive, I think it's unsupportive person. Film goes into post production. There's like a ton of stuff there that we're going to maybe we'll dig into what we talk about the movie. But after all is said and done, he shows a cut of the film to Tom and Nicole. And like the producers and they love it.

1:40:06 They're like, this is great. And it's almost like he says, my work here is finished. And six days later, March 7th, like 1999, he passes away. Stanley Kubrick passes away from a heart attack. Which leads to the question like how much there is a question. How much of this is a Stanley Kubrick film? Because it is finished like the final post production is finished after he's passed but. It's finished by his editor Nigel Galt, and he's the kind of the leader. He starts literally the day after the funeral, March 13th. He starts the day after the funeral and then he is assisted by Christian Kubrick's widow, Leon Vitale, his long time assistant, who he mentioned previously, his brother-in-law and executive producer Jan Harlan and assistant editor Melanie Veneer Cunejo.

1:40:58 Like they are ostensibly kind of and and this is a line I got from Joe McBride, Joseph McBride in kind of a symposium on Orson Welles's film, the his last movie, The other Side of the Wind. I don't know why it took me so long to pull that. Sorry. Where they they basically said we are working in service of Orson is kind of like anyone who had worked on that movie was kind of working in his service to kind of bring it to fruition. And I feel like that's what they're doing. I think the only thing that reeks of this is not Kubrick designer intention were the CGI like bikinis, the digital like bottoms that they put on a lot of the women in the orgy sequence. Which that was a big point of like half of Roger Ebert's review of this movie is just talking about the digital underwear and how Kubrick would have hated it and how it you know, covers up all the fun parts. Damn.

1:41:51 It. Which is a very Roger Ebert thing. Ebert. Yelling I want to see more Bush is a very Roger Ebert thing to say. The man who gave us Beyond the Valley of the Dolls. Are you kidding? Yes, of course. Might have even been on his tombstone. I don't know. Like Roger Ebert buried here. I want to see more Bush that that seems like a very Ebert thing to do. Didn't try to pull the Hitchcock trick of like, OK, I'll edit it, then cut to nothing and sends it back. And they're like, OK, we're fine. Can you all talk about like how this film was marketed? Because it feels like what? And this is not obviously not his fault, but what was promised versus what was delivered I think maybe led to the at the time like shaky reception of this. I'm I'm inclined to agree, basically like basically everything the Kubrick estate submitted to Warner Brothers for this movie was ignored with regard to the marketing of the film.

1:42:49 His wife and stepdaughter make posters. The posters that actually do appear on the Criterion release of the film, which are the masks of Cruz and Kidman, which look incredible and, like, very haunting and very fitting with what this movie actually is. And they're replaced with the, you know, the famous purple poster with the two leads kind of naked and kissing. And Nicole's kind of looking over her shoulder at you. Like, I wish this was you. I was kissing instead of this jabroni. And you're kind of like, I wish that was me, too. Nicole Kidman. And I bet she did feel like that. She must have she divorced the man two years later. I dropped in the chat a link to the picture of her walking out of her lawyer's office from 2001. And it's just like her in various states of elation. And it's it's an image that kind of made its rounds on social media not too long ago.

1:43:35 And I just find it great. But this is also the end of and and this is something I alluded to earlier, the end of the 90s erotic thriller boom. You've got movies all through that decade, A Fatal Attraction, Basic Instinct, Jade, Wild Things, The Hand That Rocks, The Cradle. Yes, I have to shout out my boy Willie Friedkin have to do it. As awful as Jade is, which, again, I don't think Jade is as bad as a lot of his other movies. Yeah, it's not great, but like, all these movies are kind of dominating the box office. And so I think Warner Brothers gets the idea. Well, hey, we'll market it like one of these movies, like one of these erotic thrillers, these movies that are, you know, very sexy and very thrilling and a lot of, you know, flesh and skin and heat and sweat and heavy breathing and all of that. And, you know, women breathing on men's necks and shit. Like, oh, we love that.

1:44:26 Let's let's market it that way. Let's put Chris Isaak's baby did a bad, bad thing in the trailer and in the movie because people know that means sexy good time. And then what we end up getting is this very kind of again, introspective almost. I mean, yes, it's it's played as a thriller, but it's almost like a Lynchian kind of thriller where the whole thing has this kind of bizarre, ethereal, dreamlike quality with an with a really not at all sexy orgy right at the heart of it. And so I think people are are going expecting one of those movies I mentioned earlier and getting instead this thing. And it, you know, it's the classic case of we marketed this movie wrong and it hurts our thinking that it'll get butts and seats. And what it ends up doing is because people are expecting one thing and we're delivering another, it it ultimately kind of falls flat in our faces and isn't as quite as profitable or as successful as we want.

1:45:21 It to be. And I think a lot of what led to the end just to kind of circle back to a thing I kind of obliquely mentioned. My partner and I were talking about how closely this movie ties in with like the Clinton Lewinsky scandal and how that kind of created this kind of backlash of the Moral Majority. Sure, things like that. And so movies like this just fall out of favor. Very. Quickly. Very quickly. Yeah, it comes like very. Yeah. And, and that kind of leads us to this almost puritanical thing that we have going on outside our windows right now. We're heading towards like the edgelord days of the early 2000s and mid tooth like we're kind of like going through those really coming up very, very quickly.

1:46:06 Damn you, Oliver Cromwell. Movie is released mid-july. Nothing says Christmas like the swell, sweltering heat of July, but it's released. I know also release in July. Fanny and Alexander releases in July like it's it's kind of a dumping Iron Man 3. You know your most of your Shane Black movies kind of dump in this area as well. And all of Shane Black movies are Christmas movies except for the predator. That's a Halloween movie, but the rest of them are Christmas movies like that, that that's kind of a dumping ground for these non conventional Christmas. But it gets very mixed critical reception, like very, very mixed.

1:46:47 Like critics are not a huge fan of this. And they find it, like very confounding. And audiences, the ones that show up kind of feel the same way. Like on a $65 million budget, it makes like 65 million in the US alone. And which is not what they were especially like Tom Cruise at this time is like he gets out of bed and the movie makes 100 million. You know what I mean? Like that is just it's not. And we're not too far away from like persons like Tom Cruise flop era, like where he's not going to like that star really to the point where Paramount is like, you're a disgrace. We're cutting ties with you.

1:47:28 It's like we're not Jeremy. Renner, he'll, he'll lead our franchise. Now, yes, exactly. A plan that always goes well. Jeremy Renner for the win. Always in forever. It's 160 million worldwide. Not what they were anticipating. And it comes out in a summer where like the two biggest movies are like The Sixth Sense and the Blair Witch project. These like kind of micro budget small thrillers that eat this movie, eat the masters lunch like that's kind of amazing. So, but overall, like Nicole, can you speak to the legacy of this movie now? Like now it is much remembered much, much differently.

1:48:09 Can you speak to like how people view this movie 2526 years later? Sure. I mean, I think, again, it's a legacy. This is Kubrick's last film. He passes away right before its premiere, right after some of its initial screenings. And I think that, you know, it's an interesting thing. Kubrick is a director that I don't think people know how to market because his films are kind of all over the place.

1:48:49 You, you know, you can't put on a box from the director of Lolita and Metal Jacket. Like, what is that? Like, what are you walking away with? What's your narrative? Can you say like The Shining in 2001 and Doctor Strangelove? Yeah, I mean, I think you can get into like his spectacle films and then you can get into his like, I really want to fuck with people, yeah, films. And so this is AI want to fuck with people film. What do you think he did better? I think he did both spectacularly, but I would say I I resonate with the I will fuck with people. OK.

1:49:36 Films, but I really like. I love 2001. I have a big 2001 poster. The posters that I have of Kubrick films in my apartment now are 2001, Lolita and Paths of Glory. I like that. I want to get an Eyes Wide Shut because I think that this is a film that, you know, I think in years past we've started to re evaluate it a little bit and say, hey, there are some different things that are happening. It wasn't just this hodgepodge mess.

1:50:16 It came out in a year that there was a lot going on with film. This is, and I think that it kind of got a little bit, very surprisingly enough, you would think someone like Kubrick and Kidman and Cruz mashed together in a pie. You couldn't do that, but you can, and it kind of happened. Considered like one of the best years ever in movie history. Like if not the best year, it is widely considered like it's. It's a banger of a year, like from start to finish. And like it's and yeah, I lived in theaters this year. Like it's just so much stuff we got to see here is.

1:50:57 So here's as we go into like talking about the movie, like here is a question I have for you. And I think like one of the things I wrestled with, like when like researching this and reading was like part of what made this project so appealing to so many people to to do was Kubrick. Kubrick's legacy is like at the time in the mid 90s, like when this was like really ramping up. He was the greatest living director at the time. And I think I know your answer, but like, would you say that like that is like an accurate assessment of him at the time, mid 90s coming off like a period where he hadn't. I don't even want to qualify it. So would you say at that time is Steven puts on a nice comfy cozy Christmas sweater.

1:51:43 I was saying to Nicole that like his reputation. Headphones on the whole time I heard. You got it. OK, So is that an accurate representation? I definitely think that Kubrick was in his own league, and I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that he was introverted and he didn't play by a lot of the Hollywood rules that some of those other big names were. And so there was that mystique to him, you know, even directors that did have kind of that indie cred, you know, Soderbergh. So you got to remember, like, the 90s was also that time of indie films really kinda absolutely kind of becoming bigger than life.

1:52:28 And so you have someone who doesn't really make indie films but is kind of considered a rebel when it comes to filmmaking and picking on these really difficult texts and trying to say something different with them. And so, yeah, I definitely think he was in a league of his own. And that's why, like, directors who even Spielberg would push back against him and be like, Nah, I'm not gonna be at your beck and call. I'm not putting the fucking fax machine by my crapper so that you can let me know your thoughts and feelings at 2:00 AM. He still there was still that respect of like this is still someone that you know. Hey, I'll put my fax maybe in my office and I will make sure to go down first thing in the morning and and do a clean sweep of what you may have sent me during the fever pitch dreams of the evening.

1:53:23 And yeah, I, he said. He's one of my favorites. Him Cronenberg to me, are really people who not just define their own genres and their own works, but really transformed the way that we think about genre films and how directors work within those bubbles. I think he's someone who, if not widely regarded by the public as a whole, was certainly a director's director. Like he's the kind of filmmaker that other directors really love and notice and take take a lot from. Again, his his visual stylism like, but he was also one of the few that was able to crossover in very interesting ways and and create these movies that would become kind of indelible and capital.

1:54:12 I important as well. So there. I mean, the movie was marketed on the strength. I mean, I just watched the trailer and it's it's Cruz, it's Kidman, it's Kubrick, those three names in that order. So he's still a big enough name with the public that they wreck even though he's only directed Probably like what, like 12-13 films 12? Total 13 altogether. Right. So that that that is still again, just based on those the strength of those films and their cultural footprint. I mean, 2001 is essential. The Shining, Indelible, Full Metal Jacket, Undeniable Clockwork Orange, unmistakable. Like all of these films of his kind of plant their flag in the cultural consciousness in a way that even if you don't recognize, it's the same guy that directed them all. Because again, he does, he's got a visual style, but he's making so many different kinds of movies and doing so many different kinds of things that you might not recognize. Oh, this is the same guy that directed all of these. You do at least know the name and you recognize one or two or three of those things that that you can really resonate with. And I think that is the strength of Kubrick. And I, I didn't know who Stanley Kubrick was until this movie was coming out.

1:55:29 And a friend of mine was basically dumping the Kubrick lore on me being like, hey, this guy, he's a great director. He directed all these great movies that you have at this point never heard of. And he's directed this movie and he died and it's coming out and it's going to be really wild, like a lot of people are like. And I watched and I was just like, Nicole Kidman looks like she didn't get very naked in this movie. That's interesting. Like again high school Steven. Which again, first shot of the movie is the first thing we see. Is Nicole Kidman stripping down like that is the first thing we see and she looks incredible. And I think like to that like when that's what you first start with, like your audience is going to have an expectation that and that's not his fault, Like, but that expectation, I think it's not met throughout the rest of the film.

1:56:16 And that again, I am not blaming him for that. That's not what he's necessarily interested in. And I don't think that's the movie he wanted to put out either cuz like his press kit had like very specific notes that were approved before his death and Universal decided or Universal WB decided to put out none of them. Like we're just not doing this. That's not what's happening here. And it kind of, it's kind of insane. Yeah. I one of the things that also really strikes me, I guess about the marketing and just how it translates into the film. You know, it is a very sexy film. You know, there is some nice little shots of Nicole Kidman.

1:56:57 Very much enjoy. But I think also it's not there's a lack of male gaze to hit and there's a lack of like, sensationalizing her body. She's just a beautiful woman and she's the wife. And I find that really cool because it's not just look at this goddess that we're just going to like not have any, you know, personality with, not have any kind of that deep character engagement with and understand we're actually going to see, you know, Yeah, we see her, you know, she's beautiful. We also see her peeing and as she's getting ready, and it's these very real moment.

1:57:47 And I just love the mix of that. It just makes it a whole different kind of film. And the fact that I can be there and say, like, yeah, there's, you know, these shots of this very beautiful woman naked, scantily clad in underwear, whatever, and be like. But it's not. It's not what you think it is, right? There's something else there. It's not. But I think. Really. It's not like lascivious. Yeah, What works about that opening? The opening scenes is like, we see her and we appreciate her, and Bill takes her for granted.

1:58:31 She's like, how does my hair look? He's like, it looks great. You're not even looking at me. Like it's at a point where he's taking her for granted. They go to this fancy party where they don't like she knows they don't really fit in and he wants to very much fit in. I feel like he, Kubrick, would have been like a very big fan of Holden Caulfield. He's like, these people are all phonies. Every single person at this party, they're a bunch of fucking frauds. And like, I feel like Kidman's character of Alice gets that where Bill thinks he like fits right in. And you know, the amount of times he just says like, it's OK, I am a doctor throughout this movie. Like that actually means something.

1:59:13 Like it opens doors for him. And like the the realization at the end, what crushes him is when he realizes like, he's really a peon here. The thing and that's the hubris that gets him into that makes him think he can fit in at the orgy like he's like, I can, you know, I belong in these circles. I fit in these circles. I can walk in here and no one will know. While very obvious, making very obvious mistakes like showing up in a fucking taxi cab, leaving the receipt for his tuxedo rental in the pocket of his coat. Like just and, and the, the oblivious is like clearly sticking out like a sore thumb.

1:59:55 Walking in after everyone else has already arrived and standing painfully off to the side. Walking into a room where two people are having sex and standing in front of four other people. Like like not slipping behind a couch or in front of a bookshelf, instead just standing right in the middle of it to get as close to the action as he can. Like he, he doesn't belong. It's clear to everyone but him that he doesn't belong. But he's so hubristic. He's so inside his own head. And full of his own self importance that he doesn't realize it. Well, and that's part of the crush of, you know, with Alice, you know, her fantasy isn't about another doctor. It's about a sailor and probably someone that he feels is beneath him.

2:00:39 But this is a man that was able to give her something in this fantasy life that he couldn't and that he wouldn't. And so I think that that's you know, I think again, it's that journey of how do I how do I define myself back to the place that I think I should be? And it not happening him at each turn making the situation worse for himself. And I think that's the comedy is where it's like this guy just for someone who is supposed to be so fucking smart, is the dumbest person in. The room absolutely and I self aware person. In the room.

2:01:20 And what's? Very interesting weaponization of Cruz's persona. Who is so hyper aware and so managed and so everything is like, what is the public? He controls so much about what the public can see and like, this is the opposite here. And like he's a blank slate. Nicole, you doing OK? Yeah. OK, then, if we're, what I find really fascinating is Alice is presented with this opportunity to cheat and she holds all the cards in this, even if we don't realize it at 1st. And she like very deftly excuses herself. Like she enjoys the attention as we all do.

2:02:02 Like, it's flattering to be wanted by this other person, but she's like, at the end of the day. And she's like, very coyly and casually, like, flicks her fingers, like, I am married. Like, this isn't going to happen. Where every time Tom Cruise's Bill is presented with an opportunity to cheat, he doesn't stop himself. Something else stops him. He gets a the only time I think it's maybe with Marion. And I think that's because like he feels like she's beneath him. You know, that's maybe the closest it comes to him extraditing himself. And he hasn't maybe also like built things up, but he is going up to like potentially fuck those models. And I think maybe he feels relief every time he's pulled away, not because he wants to be faithful, but honestly I think he wouldn't know what to do with himself if he were to try to go through.

2:03:00 With him, yeah, that's a good point. Like it, Yeah. He is his own undoing in every single circumstance like and I, I would think the, the, the key thing about Marion is that's the first one that happens, I think after the models. And then after that, it's just like situation after situation or like when Rachel Beija is pretty much offering up Lily Sobieski on a platter and he like you can tell he's kind of skeeved by it and she's really into it. And he's just kind of like, I need to not be here anymore. I need to go find, you know, a more perhaps a more slightly more age appropriate person, although that's never been a Tom Cruise concern.

2:03:43 Let's be clear. Just I'm just, you know, the fact that he's always paired with women half his age in all of his movies these days is all I'm referring to. I don't think that's necessarily a Tom Cruise thing. That's a Hollywood thing. Right. So I I'm not going to fault him for, I'm not going to fault him for that. I feel like I'm defending him a lot here. And I to be clear, I think this guy is really skeevy, but. Scientology's latest recruit, Mike. Simeon anyway, he just. Went through auditing, got his Deaton levels checked. But I feel like I'm defending him way more than I was planning on in this is, I mean, I put the question in the notes, like, do you think it's hard to beat Tom Cruise?

2:04:26 Like, do you think like waking up every day is Tom Cruise is a difficult thing? It has to be exact. For him, yeah. For him it is. Yeah. Yeah. Because he wants. He's always on. Yeah, always. And I think again, wanting to, I think there's also this idea of wanting to be something that you're just not going to be. As great as Tom may be in a lot of different facets, he has his shortcomings. Literally. He's short and famously so as someone who is well under 5 foot, I have no beef with that.

2:05:06 You would probably be a giant to me and that would be fine. But you know, there's. The whole kid is like 6 feet tall like she is not right. Yeah, yeah. But you know, I think that to, you know, you have someone like Kidman who I think is so effortless and kind of her own body and her own persona. She never really feels like she's struggling to figure it out. She feels very secure. And that's something that I find really interesting about her characters, is that all of her characters have a bit of that assurance, which makes them interesting to watch in the film.

2:05:49 Tom just doesn't really have that in this film. It's kind of like Kubrick said, all of that, you know, chest puffing that you've done. I'm deflating it now. You are Tom, you are the short man next to this wife that even though you are Tom Cruise, people are going to be like, really? Yeah, you are beneath her in every conceivable way. Yeah. And then to have this throne in your face, I it's just something that's really compelling. And it does make me wonder, you know, we talk a lot about the conditioning that Kubrick does with his actors to kind of get them in the into the mind state for this. It kind of makes me wonder what Cruz came to the table with to be like.

2:06:41 I got to let myself just be kind of laid out raw here. I would like that to be the case because it would make sense. He then goes on to do Magnolia, which is another really, really raw, intense performance. And I think one of the most, you know, someone asked me like my top five favorite non horror films of all time. This is at the top. And it's because of his role. And especially when he has you have again, someone who is presenting. But the minute that they are next to their dad, the minute that they are put in their place, they deflate. They just become a puddle and I find that really captivating that he can go there. And I think you see that with like the Sydney Pollock character here, like with the Victor character here, like he's very much like the dad stand in like Tom, like Bill wants to be seen this appear of him, but he's pretty quickly like dressed down by him, like where he's like Pollock's like, let's just cut the bullshit.

2:07:48 Like you're in way over your head. You have no idea what you're playing with. And that's what persistence precipitates, like Tom's breakdown. I'm not often of the mindset like it's all a dream or it's all a fantasy. But I think you can make a case for at least a reading or interpretation of that here. Because like in all of these like settings, like Bill is the gallant one, Like he he like stands apart from Mary and he rebuffs her only to like later on be like, you know what? Maybe that is a booty call I'll make. I've exhausted all other possible. And then her fiance picks up. So he hangs up. He sees himself the center of this grand conspiracy that has played out.

2:08:32 He think you said we made mention of like the costume shop is called the rainbow after he'd been promised to be taken over the other side. There is like this ethereal kind of feel to this and I, you know, made the comment like the IT would pair this movie with the triple feature of Scorsese's after hours. Like this plays like a less madcap version of of After Hours and also American Psycho. I think Christian Bale is playing like a basically tapping into the Tom Cruise like blank slate public persona in his portrayal of Patrick Bateman. Like that's very much what I see when I watch this movie. I'm like that is that is Patrick Bateman, but not as like a finance bro as a doctor bro.

2:09:29 And the evolution of those from after hours to Eyes Wide Shut to American Psycho, you get kind of gradually like into the more is it real? Is it a dream as you carry through those three films? So I think that's kind of a perfect setup for the three of them too. Like that's really well done. And even like her dream halfway through the movie after he comes back from the orgy where she basically recounts the orgy back to him as though she were a participant. Like is that did that happen in her head? Like if the mask is there on the bed when he comes home, like who put that there? Did she find it? Did he accidentally leave it there? And like, and that's the thing that ultimately makes him break and confess everything.

2:10:11 Like there's so much, there's so many layers to this. And I think it's kept intentionally vague. Like I, I discussed Twin Peaks the return with our, our friends over at the Spectre Cinema Club yesterday. And we, you know, this, this whole idea of what is real and what is not is, is a very lynchy and conceit and living in the abstractions and the contradiction. And this feels like Kubrick kind of putting his toe into that water. Like this is a wild thing to watch the day after you finish watching Twin Peaks the return. I just have to say like it, it, it kind of puts you in kind of a very specific headspace that you're like, God, wait, what, what am I watching here? Like it? It really contextualizes it in a fantastic and fascinating way.

2:10:52 And so I was just watching this kind of with new eyes, my eyes wide shut perhaps for the like, just like really kind of getting a sense of this thing and taking a different perspective and a different tone on it. And it really does. Like this central orgy is kind of the linchpin, but everything in the movie is kind of leading up to or flowing out of it. And so it's wild, Like, what is real, what is not? How much of this is happening in his head? How much of this is actually true? Like, in his review, Ebert says, I really just wanted, like, is he supposed to just take everything that Victor says at face value? And Ebert's like, I really would have loved one final scene where he's just walking down the hall of a hallway and sees a a stretcher wheeled by with the corpse of a piano player on it. Like Ebert's.

2:11:37 Like, I think that would be the perfect ending to this movie. And I might bump it up to four stars instead of 3 1/2. But like But I find I find the uncertainty the most fascinating part of it, personally. It what? Yeah, it is. It's frustrating and it's opaqueness at times, but that's also kind of the charm of it, is that we can project a lot onto it. And what I'm interested, like the the central argument that sends Bill down this path, I'm interested in both of your takes on the argument that Alice and Bill have and Alice like confessing that she's had like impure thoughts about other men that she's never acted on. It is wild because it just goes to show, I think, how the kind of sexual lives of women is weaponized against them that even just a fantasy is horrific and destroying. But a man can go out and participate in orgies and it's like, yeah, it's a Tuesday.

2:12:48 So we I think that that's something that is obviously on a very, like, superficial level. But again, it just really speaks to this like, you know that fragile masculinity of the minute that you're not the center of someone else's world. Everything turns upside down and you have to find a new axis. And that's what this movie is really about. Like, how else can, who else is going to define me if I can't define myself by that? You're right. And. The core of this movie is fragile masculinity. It is not wild sexual orgy, but you're not getting 65 million to make a movie about fragile masculinity unless there's an orgy in it.

2:13:36 Like, that's what gets you the 6th. That's what bumps you up to like, you know, a $65 million budget. And Nicole, what Amitra said, too, is like, Bill sets his own trap in this argument. Like he starts with him saying to Alice like, well, of course he wanted to talk to you. You're incredibly beautiful and she's like, well, what does that mean? He's like, well, that's why men talk to women. And she's like, well, by that logic, you wanted to fuck those two women. If that's all that guy wanted to do because they were beautiful, right? Like he just he's so fucking dumb. Like he sets a trap, hubris. And then like he's like, here's a bear trap. Now let me like belly flop onto it and they go, why is my stomach?

2:14:19 Hurt mine. Where she comes back first is your appearance. And she's a brilliant person herself with a career and a very rich life. And so he's like, no, they couldn't be, you know, enthralled by you as a person. That of course. And like, I kind of get the idea, like, yeah, you see an attractive person, your eyes is going to be like, OK, that's a that's an attractive person, right? But to go and to like want to pursue them and have conversation with them, that's a that takes something a little bit different. And he really wants to downplay that on her, to kind of minimize her, but she just comes back at him in the perfect way. Rightly, yeah.

2:15:09 He breaks out the You're the mother of my child, like again. He's reducing her to a role, a role that like serves him. And it's like, that is it's not the solid argument you think you're making. And then he dismisses her increasingly agitated feelings rather than take even a minute to self interrogate and say like where am I wrong here? He's literally Sideshow Bob stepping on a rake over and over again with each argument even well. Bringing up the child is such a bizarre thing in this movie because, yes, they have a child. It's obviously there.

2:15:53 We barely see the child. Yeah, she's like, come on. And so it's kind of like you're you're the mother of my child, the child that no one knows about. And you, we get a nanny so that we can go out to this swanky party and then you come home and then I go to orgy. Yeah. Yeah. And a Kidman child. A mother to that child than than he is like he. I think he says like 2 lines to her the whole movie. She's doing math and everything else. She's hanging out with him. Her, yeah. Right. Like she's the one that's like, Mommy, I I want to stay up and watch The Nutcracker. Oh, OK. What time is it on? It's on at 9. OK, that's OK. Yeah. And then, you know, can I stay up till you come home?

2:16:33 And that's when he's like, it's going to be pretty late there, kiddo. Like he's just kind of a perfunctory parent. And he lets, like so many men do, lets her do all the hard work and heavy lifting while he gets to kind of rest on his laurels with the. Well, I'm I'm a doctor. He's a. He's a resume. He's not a person. He's a resume. I'm not a person. Beautifully sad. He's a parent because that's what men of his stature do. They have children. They have children so when they're playing golf, they can talk about their children. So when they're like at the cigar bar, they can talk about their children. That's why he has a child. Like that's the only reason he has a child and. Not talk about Chilton.

2:17:16 Had a Chihuahua. Yeah, Tom Cruise has a child in. This I have a Chihuahua. Well, and it's not to talk about the child. It's about to compare notes, Yes. And to be able to say like, this is how I'm a father. This is what I did for my kid. Yeah, having a child in this world is like have the business card. Like you could see the American Psycho business card, yes. You know, like measuring stick. You could see them having that. Like where's your child going to school? Like where are they riding Equestrian like? What are they? What instrument are they playing? You know, like their first chair at the New York York Symphony. And it's like not about the child. It's all framed in that in that way.

2:17:58 But Alice's crime. And she is very like when she's describing this fantasy, she does bring it back to like, even though I had this fantasy, I love you even more. Like I realized I would not want to throw this away. But she is trying to hurt him like she's not guilt twist. Like she is trying to weaponize her fantasies against him because she's hurt. Yeah, but it's all a fantasy. He goes out and he acts on it like he's like, I'm going to go get my fuck on. It's like, basically what? And he's just so awkward that he can't. And even when he can't, like he's so nice to the sex worker that like she talks about him later, the nice guy Doctor Bill, like, you don't even have to pay me.

2:18:47 It's OK. And it it's what's so egregious to me is the way this movie ends. Alice apologizes to Bill. Alice is like, I hurt you and that's why you did all this when like, no, he was going to go like put little bill in as much as he could if the opera, if he if he didn't continuously like trip over himself. Right. Agreed. And again, it it's, but at the same time, it's almost, it's almost like a pretty powerful move in chess. And that maybe we don't see the strategy behind it because, you know, I think at this point, she's a smart lady.

2:19:33 She has to understand her power now. And I think that, yeah, maybe taking that onus and saying, look, you know, when I was telling you all this, I was, I was coming at it pretty hard. I was going into some details because I wanted to make sure that they were they were sinking in staying with you. However, like you said, unlike you know, when I'm using all of these stereotypes and generalities and I hate it. But when you hear about men who go out and cheat, it's almost and they say, Oh no, I want to come back because I realized I could never have with them when I have with you or I could never do better than you.

2:20:17 That's not the flex that you think it is. But she's saying, I know that I love you more than this. I didn't do it. Just the thought of it made me realize that I love our life. I love you and our relationship more than what this could even potentially be. And that to me is landmark. Like, that's how you say these things. You say, look, yeah, we're all going to have fantasies. We're all going to think about someone else, but The thing is, we still come home to the person that we love because we know that we love them and that's who we want to be with. She makes that clear.

2:21:00 Yeah. And I think the final lines of the movie are very telling as well. Like he's like, you know, it's it's forever. And she's like, maybe? Slow your roll, buddy, Slow your roll. But up to this point in the movie, every time she's referred to sex, it's making love, making love. But then she says right after that, you know, there is something very important we need to do as soon as possible. And he's like, what's that? And she's like, fuck. Yeah, but she doesn't say fuck each other. And I think that's very telling. You know, we have to go fuck, but it doesn't say each other. And I honestly think that's telling. I think that there's a little bit of wiggle. There's that little bit of wiggle room that is there.

2:21:41 And maybe it is like, OK, we realize we have these desires now we're going to go act on them like we are going to go. We open the relationship. Maybe we do, which would be a disaster in there. I mean just would be an absolute like hey, the marriage is in trouble. We should open it up. Like I will tell you as someone who's done couples counseling like that never works in people's. That's not why you would open and to me. Look, I. Always, I always love the line from Arrested Development. Like, you know, people get delusional and they they think it'll work and. Not us. Never. Does. But maybe. It'll work for people maybe. Yeah, I think of that every time and it just makes me laugh. Yeah, I just think of the audacity of this line coming at a toy store. Right.

2:22:28 With their kid, I love I love it because I think again, it speaks to I love what you were saying about there being Winkle room And what are they actually referring to with this? I do think that she's saying like, no, we need to go home and we need to have sex. We need to like there's obviously something that we're not doing and connecting to each other in this way. So let's let's go home and let's work on something. And I think that that. Like we're. Like horny teenagers, Let's just go at each. Other get in that ass, Larry, like you're getting in there, like you're going to eat that ass tonight. Like that is what's going on.

2:23:12 And like maybe she's breaking out the harness. I don't know. Maybe she's fucking him. I don't know. Love to see it. Would are you kidding me? I would love to see that. Would absolutely. You kidding me? Would love to see that. Speaking of. So crew should be hanging Dong in this movie. Yeah. Oh yeah, I think, yeah, there's like no mail. There should be a lot more Dong hanging in this movie. So should Nicole, though, if we're talking about strap ONS, yeah. So should Nicole be against some Dong here? And here's Wow. If Kubrick could ask Cruz to hang Dong, he absolutely would have. So I don't know who's the real. Coward here. Kubrick wouldn't ask. He would tell.

2:23:52 Yeah. And then? And then he would feel. Like I'm so. Sorry. Yeah, he would humiliate him and he would make him wear prosthetic to make it he'd. Be like, I'm so sorry I didn't hang Dong when I showed up in the. 1st. Place, of course, this is what you wanted. Right. It's another Steven way back you were talking about how this is like a modern retelling of It's a Wonderful Life or and reinterpretation of it. Here's where I push back on that. At the end of It's a Wonderful Life, George Bailey realizes how much he has touched other people and the good touch, not the no no square don't touch the no.

2:24:33 I think the good touch, how much he is like touched other people's lives, but also we're almost 3 hours in so yeah, silly me comes out, but also like how much And this is a Christmas show Hey kitties, hope you got the toys you wanted. George Bailey realizes how much he has touched other people, but how much they have touched him and like at the end of It's a wonderful life, I every time when Harry says to my and I'm doing, I'm tearing up now like the line to my brother George, the richest man in Bedford Falls, like because he is he really is. George realizes like how much he means to other people and what they mean to him.

2:25:17 Bill does not realize that at the end, like and Nicole, to your point, like Alice gives him this wonderful speech about like what her love means to him and why. And it's like we've hurt one another. But we should still go on. And Bill's response is and a dream is never just a dream. He's still weaponizing her dreams, which are subconscious against her. He can't. He has no clue. He's an idiot to the very end. And maybe it's like it's the, and are a lot more cynical and there's a great book about how 1999 is the tipping point in the culture where we all became like much more stupid. Like there's a phenomenal book about that that just came out earlier this year that I'm going through. And maybe it's like, this is the It's a wonderful life we deserve in 1999.

2:26:12 I think that's, yeah, I think there's something to that. And I hate that, I guess, like, I hate that cynicism. I'm not a cynical person. And like it, it galls me. It galls me that like that is. But again, and, and this goes back to what I was saying earlier as well, like what do we, why do we consider Christmas movies, Christmas movies sentimentality and nostalgia? And this movie doesn't have that at all. This movie is completely wiped clean of any sentimentality and any nostalgia. So, but it is in fact it's a wonderful life with that element completely excised out of it and with a healthy dose of 90 cynicism in. Serial. And so I mean like. If the end of a Wonderful Life, if George gets arrested like that would have been the end of Yes, it was made like he gets hauled off Merry Christmas, everyone, and hauls them off. Yeah, Yeah.

2:27:00 So. But but again, that's and again, I think, you know, it's it's a wonderful life for the new Millennium. I think that's, I don't know if that's intentionally what Kubik's going for, but that kind of ultimately I think ends ends up being what and I think what its lasting legacy as a Christmas film is, however you define it. Again, I think sentiment on and I thought have a lot to do with it, but like I would definitely fit this in the modern Christmas Canon as kind of an outlier. Like, Brian posted a list on social media recently. Brad has been coming up a lot in this episode. Yeah, about like, kind of Christmas movies with an edge. And this is like one of his top ones on that list. And it it definitely qualifies in that, I think.

2:27:41 Has The Edge, the guitar player from U2, ever appeared in a Christmas movie? Not to my knowledge. But I would love to. We need to fix that. We need to fix that. Can we talk about the orgy before we go home? I'm surprised we haven't yet. My I know 3 hours in Nicole, you're like no do we have to it's like. Always happy to talk about an orgy please. Yeah, it's the least. Happy to talk about an orgy. It's the and Nicole, like you threw the gauntlet down. You're like, well, my experience, I don't you know what? I don't want to speak your truth. Like am I saying too much here? If I reveal what you said at the slack, you're like, no, my experience with orgies has been much different than this. And like I would say for for myself, like I have like a fairly limited experience, but I have some. And the first thing I'll say is like, no one goes to the orgy that you want to go to the orgy.

2:28:35 I include myself in that. OK, I am not excluding myself from that statement. Like nobody wants to see me there. But they were not like this. They were like much more sweaty and less less manufactured I think is the and there was a lot less incense. There was a lot less incense at those. The 90s was a wild time. Yeah, but surprisingly, more masks, weirdly. Wrestling masks A Lucha Libra wrestling mask. That sounds like the kind of orgy you'd be at Mike. Right. But it's just like everything is so performative every. It feels like it's the least sexy. It's like no one there again has any interest in sex.

2:29:19 They have interest in power and showmanship. That's it. They have interest in saying that they went to an orgy. Yeah, not interest in being at an orgy and what that could symbolize for people who go to participate in orgies or participate in any kind of kink or whatever. I've talked about being like part of the kink community in DC and going to lots of different events and play events where there's lots of public play and things like that. And yeah, you're right.

2:30:00 Like, this is not what it is. This is, you know, you go because you want to have certain experiences. You go because you want to connect with other people in a really profound way. This is the antithesis of that. No one wants to connect. And so to me, that's the thing that always stands out more and more, especially since I've watched this since really getting more involved in the King community, is that when we go to different events, it is very much about that connection and meeting people. And this is not that no one cares, No one is forming any kind of bond or you're not getting the awkward conversations that you had with people before to be like, all right, well, what's your, what are you?

2:30:51 What's? Your safe word What is? Yeah. Yeah, so I. Mine was Fozzie Bear. Just letting that out there. Just say sorry we. All know that now. Yeah, just letting y'all know. I think you are glad Steven. I think you know, deep down you're pretty happy that you know that that. Just recontextualizes our entire conversation on the Muppet Christmas Carol from a couple years ago. Though All right, sorry to call I. Had I known that going into that episode, that would have gone very differently, but OK. Yeah, it's just it's really interesting with the orgy scene. And of course, I think we hit on it before.

2:31:32 One of the things that was so scandalous about this movie was I think when it was first going through the MPAA ratings, they were going to smack it with an NC 17 because of this. And so that's when they got some creativity with the CGI and we're like, let's put some figures here, let's put on some panties here and really desexualized it. This is the most desexualized sexualized movie there is. It's more about the tension and more about, you know, it reminds me of the Lonely Islands. Like I just had sex. You want to be the person that has the cake that said I just had sex, but you don't necessarily want to go through the work of having the sex. Yeah, you're.

2:32:22 No, I that that you're 100% spot on. Like it it. Roger Ebert describes the CGI as kind of like the Austin Powers hide the genitalia scenes from from those films where Austins like walking around post sex and they've got all these things cleverly arranged to obscure all the naughty bits so there's no nudity actually shown. That's very much what the CGI edit of this movie looks like. And I've only seen the non CGI version because that's what exists now in physical media. So I think like Roger Ebert's like greatest regret is he did not live long enough for the physical media version of this to come out to see. It's like I have but one regret and it's that sorry to go I do.

2:33:05 Think that one of the interesting things about though the CGI is it further just adds this layer of unrealness to this orgy. It feels foreign and like you said, it feels very performative. And this amp set up, you know, when you are faced with realities, whether it's the reality of an actual human body, what it looks like, and it's there, that that's gonna bring you to a certain grounding to where this is very much about taking you away from the reality. These aren't real people. These are puppets in space.

2:33:46 Yeah. And that's. It to your point, like Kubrick, when he hires like nobody with any enhancements, no filler, no breast augmentation, like everyone's all natural, but he had no idea what he wanted to do. Like this scene was rehearsed for months. And my understanding is it kept getting more explicit and more explicit to the degree where the key choreographer, she finally said no. She's like, you're basically essentially me asking me to like film a pornography scene. And that's not about what I signed up for. She actually recommended, like she actually told some of the performers like you should actually go out and get some sort of enhancement done because he'll fire you if you feel uncomfortable.

2:34:31 Like these are persons like they're increasingly uncomfortable with like what he was asking them to do because he didn't quite know. It's almost like he maybe he knew right from the start but didn't know how to ask. Like do this thing for me. Well, this is a time long before there was such a even a concept of what an intimacy coordinator writes do or be. So. And again, that kind of old Hollywood, like you're going to do it or else you're not going to be in the movie kind of thing is probably looming very large. Like I I don't think Kubrick. I think Kubrick would probably have some choice things to say about the role of intimacy coordinator in Hollywood today, to be honest with you. Yeah.

2:35:14 Probably. What else do we got? It's a good movie. Yeah, it is. It makes you want to celebrate the holidays. Sure, with your nearest and dearest and go to an orgy. Boxing Day. Boxing Day orgy, everybody. Mike, those days are over for me. Yeah, so. But celebrate Boxing Day, celebrate Christmas. I've said a lot. So yeah, I'm very glad we picked this movie It. Same, Yeah. It still really wrestle with him as a filmmaker and I think that's on me and not him. Like that's my own bringing my and I think like I have like a much more because I have like a much more humanistic view of the world. I struggle with something that feels so clinical and calculating.

2:36:05 That's like really where I go. And it's funny. Like, this is like a very Freudian film, but I would call Kubrick like a from the BF Skinner like realm of conditioning. Like you can manipulate people if you like, do this thing enough, you can manipulate them to act a certain way. And it's not like it's not something that I aspire to or really fully believe in. I think that that tends to wear out over time. But yeah, I want do want to clear up. Like, I do think Tom Cruise is a giant weirdo.

2:36:47 I know that. I've, like, feel like I've defended him here more than I intended. I do feel a little sorry for him, as weird as that is to say like that is. I feel like it's must be very. You've made so many trade-offs to live as inauthentic a life as possible that there is something a bit sad about that. Right. At what point do you stop becoming a person and just become the character that you've been playing for so long? And he did save movies in 2021. It's true. He did on single handedly saved movies all by himself. So any final thoughts? Nicole, Steven, any other thoughts?

2:37:29 No, it's it's a great movie. If you haven't seen it, why are you still listening? Go watch it and then restart the episode over again, you weirdo. No, it's a it's a great film. I again, I get something more out of it every time I watch it. It's one that I will continue to go to as soon as the next Criterion sale rolls around. I'm definitely snatching up that 4K because I have to imagine that's going to look beautiful on my on my TV and my 4 KTV. So yeah, no, I really dig it in as a final statement for Kubrick. It's fittingly bizarre. And I kind of love that for for him and for his legacy as well. Like I, I really dig this movie and I which is why again, when Nicole was just like eyes wide shut, I was like, fuck yes in 100% sign me up. That is a Christmas movie that I will discuss for sure, because I'm I generally tend to dislike most traditional Christmas books. So as a slightly non traditional one, I'm in. Well, listeners, it's been an episode like if you guys want to say very quickly where y'all can be found and what's coming up, we'll wrap it up because we all got to work. Well, Nicole, you don't have to work tomorrow. You're on vacation.

2:38:32 Like not to assume, but I got to work tomorrow. It's my one day of work this week so. Same. Oh I've got to work the next day and a half and then I get some time off but then I'm like filling it with as much as possible. Is it really play time off? Yeah, we're debating Marty. Marty Supreme or Anaconda is our Christmas night movie, and I'm really I. Know which one I would pick? Anaconda. My Anaconda don't want none less. You got buns Hon? Thinking of. Paul Rudd. We're thinking of asking another couple to join us, so we don't know if they would go for Martin, Marty Supreme. Like they're pretty normie and I don't know.

2:39:15 You can ask. Well. You could also You could also throw avatar fire and ash out. Isn't it? No, I will not do. I will. I Avatar is not for me. Just it's absolutely not for me. Not my thing either, but to each their own. No, 3 hours of that. I'd rather fucking poke my eyeballs. Just no. Anyway, Nicole, where can listeners find you? Yeah, you can find me over at Bodies of Horror at the Anatomy of the Scream Pod Squad where I have a bi weekly podcast that talks about disability and horror. So specifically horror or disability through the lens of kind of horror films and characters and tropes and all of that good stuff.

2:40:00 Tomorrow, So tomorrow from the night that we are recording this, I am dropping an episode on Gremlins. And autonomy and caregiving and the way that we demonize those that are different from us without any kind of thought to our role in things. You're not going to defend Mrs. Deagle in that episode, are you? Oh no, I'm defending the gremlins. OK, I got a little nervous there for a second. I thought you were I'm. Listening to gremlins. Throw Miss Deagle in that, OK. I was gonna say, yeah, we can't. There is.

2:40:42 I will. I will not stand for Miss Deagle support in this. In this OK. No, I'm full Full support for all of the gremlins. Full support for sweet baby Angel Gizmo. That was my nickname when I was little from my mom because she's like, I can't feed you after midnight and you don't want to get wet with your scars and you also don't like bright lights. So now whenever I'm home and she comes in to wake me up, I'm like, bright. Lights, bright lights. Oh boy, we did Gremlins for a Christmas movie The other night and it holds up, holds up so well.

2:41:26 It's such a great. I'm saving it for Christmas morning. Such a great movie. I love that movie so much. Yeah. I mean the Gremlins just like they just, you know, they're a little Now. Are you saying that like the Gremlins are, they are justified and going on because they do try to kill Billy's mum? Mike. They are. Murderers. The episode. No, I will say that basically the line that I'm taking is on more superficial levels. Like, you know, Gizmo, they're all MOG wise, but Gizmo gets kind of like the pretty pass and is, you know, even though there's extra care for him that is necessary because he's cute and he's nice and he doesn't make a lot of noise and fuss, he's OK. But when the gremlins roll around and there's not an infrastructure and support system to now meet more needs, they're cast aside.

2:42:30 And when they change into from Little Magua to Gremlin, that's just basically how society views like in need of support. So yeah, it's a very light hearted nice episode. I can't remember. I do. That sounds so awesome. I'm very much looking. Forward to I'm just thinking #notallgremlins is the theme that we're coming up with here. Yeah. So, Steven, what about disenfranchised? We, we just recorded our episode on our final episode of 2025 on the Electric State, a movie that did in fact come out this year, despite all evidence to the contrary.

2:43:13 We covered that and that's going to be our last episode for a little bit. We're going on a little bit of a hiatus through at least the next month just to kind of because my brain has been in very bad places lately. So I'm digging myself out of that and kind of trying to do some self reflection and some healing. So yeah, we're going to take a little break there, but you can definitely listen to that episode. That episode also dropped this morning. So after you finish this, pop on over to the Disenfranchised feed and listen to us. Tucker and I talk about a movie that is has no business being as good it is as it is, but it's still very, very bad. That's kind of where I think we both landed on that movie. So check that out over on Disenfranchised. If you'll follow me on Blue Sky and Litter Box at Chewy Walrus to see what else I got going on.

2:44:00 I'll be announcing all this stuff when it comes out, I'm sure. But yeah, that's that's all I have to plug right now. Excellent for us you can find us at the part of the pendulum.com follow us on blue sky, follow us on Instagram. At the same. I've like deleted pretty much all the socials from my phone and I have found like like you were saying, Steven not being in the best headspace. I have found doing that has improved my mood remarkably. I am not meant for social media, but we'll do promo and what not there. You can if you like what we do here and if you're like 3 hours in on this, you must. Otherwise you're some sort of masochist, which is OK. We accept we don't kink shame here. That's all right.

2:44:49 Not at all. Give these to an. Orgy. No. Yeah, absolutely. You can hear our episode of Back to the Future Part 2, which Brian and I recorded earlier today. I'm now like basically six hours deep into podcasting and you can hear my mom make kind of a special appearance on the show where she tells me not to buy a ham because she's bought the ham that I was supposed to make for Christmas so she could relax anyway. People don't know how to relax, Mike. We will be back and I can be one of them. We will be back. Probably will take a week because this is dropping on a Thursday and maybe we take a little more time to like edit the year end episode.

2:45:30 So we're going to be doing our review of 2025, our top ten. I know Stevens, you said you can't be on that. So I might just say maybe record a quick 5 minutes and just give us your list if you would like. Nicole, I don't know if you're hopping on. There's definitely room like so excellent. We're recording that this Saturday. That is always like, I'm like, we'll do this in two hours and then four hours later we're yelling about Nosferatu. You know, Brian's like, more like Nosferatu, which is something he has never said. This year it'll be Frankenstein, and Mike's going to be more like Stankenstein. I you know what?

2:46:11 Yeah, Frank and suck. Which both of you have that you know, look, I'm just saying I both. Have that at the same spot on our list. And there's a certain Christmas slasher that has made some lists as well, which is. Shocking. But awesome, we are all shocked and our number ones like there's like it's universal across the board. No shock there. No shock whatsoever there. But anyway, our top ten, it's usually our most popular episode. It's, you know, it gets a little bit goofy. I don't know, Maybe we'll talk more about orgies, like I'll review or reveal some other stuff. Who knows?

2:46:54 Like it's a good time. So that's it. Merry Christmas, everybody. Merry Christmas. And to like to Mike Snoonian, who did not cook a ham, I say to all, a good night, take care.