PSYCHO 2

0:35 None. Hello everyone and welcome to the pod and the Pendulum. We are the podcast that covers all the horror franchises one movie and one episode at a time. As always, I'm your host Mike Snoonian. I managed to spell my name completely incorrectly in the show notes and we have a stacked lineup of Co hosts today. First up from Bloody Disgusting and Manor Vellum as well as the newly launched Finally It Is Up. You can listen to it, the host of Holy Terror, a show that mixes the 1960s Batman show, religion and horror movies. Take out one of those things. Welcome back, Mr. Brian Typer. I'm here and yes, we launched, I'll talk about that at the end, but.

1:23 It's really, it's a great listen. I'll say this folks. It's a really fun listen. I really enjoyed, really enjoyed the first episode. So awesome. Looking forward to more of those. Also joining us back again after a little bit of a break. I think it's been a little while since you've been on because you missed our top ten of the year. I did do the the kind of the top non horror of the year that was on that. Episode that is true for the patriots. Yeah, you did that so. But from the Disenfranchise podcast, welcome back the one the only Mr. Steven Foxworthy. Hello, hello. Going a little mad here today, but I I will put myself on the record as saying I am a holy terror super fan.

2:03 So there we go. All 2 episodes that we have, including our. I've loved. This episode, well, excellent. Thank you. We are not sure where our guest is that there seems to be a time zone discrepancy so we will leave them out at this moment. Unless maybe I imagined them this whole time, like maybe that's what's going on here. OK. Someone is trying to drive you back to the institution. That's what's correct. Yeah, gentlemen, before we start, can we do a little bit of housekeeping? All. Right. Well folks, we have been stuck on 139 reviews on Apple for about four months now. Like we've been stuck there, which is a nice amount of reviews, but we'd love to see that number go out. So I am once again making my weekly plea that if you are enjoying what you're listening to, please rate, review and subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts. On Apple, you can leave us five stars and a few kind words. That goes a super long way to new listeners discovering us on Spotify, rate US five stars and you can comment on individual episodes.

3:13 We've gotten some nice comments. We just got a really nice comment on our Eyes Wide Shut episode, which I really appreciate. From our player. Which was very, very cool. They did not get to the part yet where we talked about our experiences in the orgy scene, and I wonder if they would go back and revise after that. We were, yes. We talking about our orgy experiences there was. Three of us on that show, So Steve I. Know and one of us did not talk about. That at all? Anyway. I would have been. Leave us five stars on Spotify. Brian, what's your experience with orgies? Just to put you on the spot.

3:53 Non existent I'm sorry to say. OK, fair enough. All right. Anyway. Very sorry, right, Brian. I've I've, I've seen them in Eyes Wide Shut, that's about the. That is my orgy experience, right? Fair. Enough. I'm going to put one of you on the spot right now to do the Patreon pitch. Who would like to do it? Steven would. Apparently, I would like to listen, guys, if you really love what we do, and I know you do because you're listening right now and there's no other reason why you would listen to the three of us talking if you didn't love what we do. So please consider becoming a patron by going to patreon.com/pod and the pendulum over there. You're going to find what I think we're what, right, Mike? Right.

4:38 Around what, 1000? Hours or 100. I I can't. I can't. Read. 10 million hours of bonus content. We cover one off horror movies that we normally wouldn't do on the main feed. We do special commentary episodes. Mike and I were talking before this recording about our absolutely unhinged French Connection commentary that we did last year. We we do a bunch of other stuff. Brian did a deep dive into the Nosferatu films, which I was delighted to be on one of those episodes. Ari did a full series on the I Spit On Your Grave franchise franchises that we probably wouldn't cover here on the main thing. You can get those back behind the paywall, hosted by some of the panel. So that's always a good time.

5:20 Something a little different than what you might find up here. Basically, there's a lot of great stuff for as low as 2 bucks a month. You too can have access to all of that, but also help us keep the lights on here at the show. Yeah. Now guys, I'm going to say that like we've often said, our listeners are some of the most attractive, most viral, viral athletic listeners and all the podcasts land. What is you? You know where I'm going with this. You already know what is the tier, the pot and pendulum orgy tier? What level did we have to you You can have. Did not know where you were going with that at all I was even had no clue that that took me completely by surprise and I was delighted by that surprise. My I, I'm going to let you decide that. We can discuss that off mic.

6:10 Yeah, they're. $8 we'll discuss that other stuff. We're a cheap date, right? Yeah. Apparently. Yeah, apparently. Now, to be clear, that's a monthly recurring game. And hey, tangential to orgies, we are also talking about incest with our Back to the Future series. Currently. Yeah, so. And. That's true, and interest might come up today as well. We. Anyway, we really got. We have already. We've gotten ourselves. We haven't gotten to the movie. Good. We should. Maybe we cut this and just add it to the post credits. Who knows there? We go.

6:51 Maybe anyway, Steven, you want to talk about the movie we're going to watch today? Like your early experiences with it, and maybe even like how it compares with Psycho, which I know you weren't on before but I'm sure you have. Not I have seen psycho multiple times. I've seen this movie exactly one time. I finished it about 10 minutes before we were supposed to start recording. So I my thoughts are fresh and hot. This listeners, this is my penance penance. I really Brian, let me let me talk. You'll have your turn. Your thoughts are fresh and hot, much like our orgies will be if you join the $8. Sorry.

7:36 Continue. So. When I was a young podcaster, fresh off of fresh fresh off of the start of the disenfranchised podcast, when it was just me and my my buddy Brett Wright, I made what was an ignorant comment in which I said, and I quote well, the psycho sequel suck. That was essentially what I said. And I wouldn't say the Internet got mad at me because let's be honest, I don't have that kind of following and probably never will. But two people did get very mad at me. One of them was my eventual Co host Tucker and the other was our very own brain Kuiper who's like I listen say. I got mad. I was just trying. I was trying to inform you of, you know, the fact that you may have been misinformed by the reputation of the sequels to Psycho.

8:26 Which and and at that point I had first. Two at least. I'd never seen any of them. So again, like I said, ignorant comment. So I I decided when when psycho came up on the wheel, I was like, OK, because I made that ignorant comment. I'm going as my penance. I'm going to watch all of the other movies in the Psycho Series besides the original, which at the time had been the only one that I had seen. And I did watch the original late last year. So I've seen it's it's still pretty fresh for me. And so I watched Psycho 2 today. I'm planning on being on the rest of these episodes. So buckle in if fluting, that's what you want. Yeah, OK. Look, Mike, this is my penance. I made that.

9:07 Will be your penance. 8 bucks, I made an ignorant statement and I'm going to, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make it right by watching all the, the entire cycle franchise. So that that is my that is my role. That's what I'm doing. I'm fixing that the remake is only 8 bucks on Blu-ray right now and it's a scream factory Blu-ray which they always do a really great job with the transfer. It is special features. It is Scream Factory, so there's probably going to be some extras that are. There's some good extras on it. I mean I've yet to watch it, it just came in this week but I figured for 8 bucks I'm going to pay for it to rent it. I might as. Well, own it. My dad has the DVD that I could borrow.

9:52 OK, so my feelings about the remake, I think are already pretty clear. Yep. But, you know, hey, we're not. Skipping that episode, aren't you? No, I'm on it. I'm gonna be here. Excellent. I'm gonna be here. Looking forward to that. As to my thoughts on this film after my first watch, I will say good, not great. OK, fair enough. Brian, How about yourself? You know, this is one of those movies I grew up with my grandmother, who's a huge Hitchcock fan, and my dad who was like into sort of tangentially into horror, though I didn't really know that till later. And my uncle, who was very into horror, were kind of like, how could they make a sequel to Psycho? You know, that was the conversation that was going on around 1983 when I was very young. You know, it's like, why would they do this? But then still, my dad, out of morbid curiosity, rented it, of course.

10:49 And they, my parents watched it, I'm sure. And they said, yeah, it's, it's probably OK for you to watch. Not when I was five. I mean, it was a little later than that, but it was few years later than that. But it was, I remember somehow I think I saw, I might have even seen this one before I saw Psycho because I remember this starting with the shower scene. Obviously the shower scene is where they're going to start because that's the most famous thing everyone was talking about, the shower scene. I knew the shower scene before I ever saw the movie. And so I think I saw this one first. I don't remember what I thought of it initially because I didn't really have a reference to the original to think about.

11:30 My feelings on it are I like this movie a lot. I think there's a lot of interesting things in it, a lot of good stuff. I also think it's overly complex, like unnecessarily complex at certain points. And I think there's a twist too far that it takes, yes. That said, that scene is really fucking awesome. Yes, also. Yes, I think I know what you're talking about. We'll get there. I know exactly what you're talking about because. I Yeah. So I'll try not to ruin what Psycho 3 does with all that, but for those who haven't seen it, Steven. But I, I will say that I think that I still kind of feel the same way about this movie that it's, it's, I like it, but there's certain aspects that keep me from really engaging with it the way a lot of people do. I don't know exactly what that is, but it's just a block for me.

12:25 I actually kind of prefer 3, even though it's trashier and not as good of a movie. I have more fun with it. And this one is kind of like, it's good, but it's a little bit of a chore, if that makes sense. And I'm probably not going to make any friends by saying that I prefer Psycho 3 to Psycho 2, but it's just the way I feel. That's all right. We all contain multitudes. Exactly. I think they're both like fun movies in different ways. Like they do completely different things. So I'm kind of surprised to say like this was the first time watch for me because I would have thought I had seen it because I was familiar with the twist. I know I had seen the closing scene multiple times.

13:10 And I think that must have like been like one of the myriad of like these horror documentaries that must have been like where I watched that moment, which we'll talk about later on as we talk about the movie. But I also knew, like, the plot details of it, like a mother and daughter were teaming up against them. They were trying to drive Norman mad. And I'm like, how have I not seen this movie before? But I I had it, but I was more familiar with it. I agree with you, Brian. I think there's a bit too much plot. It gets a little bit too. I think that like they get a little bit in their own heads. Like, it's a daunting, I mean, let's face it, like coming out with a sequel to Psycho 20 plus years after the original and right after Hitchcock had like recently passed away. Like that's a fairly daunting task, especially for a director who idolized Alfred Hitchcock.

14:07 Like it wasn't just like a job for hire. Like he really wanted to do do Hitchcock proud. And I think that this is as good of a sequel as you could expect. And it does a lot more right than it does wrong, especially with like the performances of it. And B it has that, you know, Dean Cundy look like look, we get our our patron St. you know, you can keep your Roger Deakins. I will watch a Dean Cundy filmed movie any day of the week and twice on Sundays. Elated when I saw his name on screen. Lastly, I. Like, I got so excited. On this, yeah. I'm sitting there with my partner on the couch watching the movie and I just tell oh Dean Cundy and she looks at me like what the hell are you talking about?

14:52 Right. Yeah, I, I and also Jerry Goldsmith, a company is. Yes, Kevin. Yeah. And then Jerry Goldsmith on the score as well. I mean it was just sort. Of Jerry Goldsmith. Yeah, there's, there's a lot of good pedigree going in, Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Behind this movies. Which is shocking considering what we're going to talk about right now with like the background and what Universal wanted to do with this movie versus like how it actually turned out. So Studio was wrong. Who knew? All right, so let's. Talk that never happens. Yeah, let's just read yesterday Ted Sarandis from Netflix saying he's committed to the 45 day theatrical window, didn't say for how long, and then said movie theaters are dying and people will only go if they live in a city, which is the most insane. They're for city folks.

15:43 Which people live in cities? Yeah, like I know people live in in dense populations. Slow down there again. Yeah, unreal. Anyway, it's like, I think we're driving like an hour maybe tomorrow or Monday for the no other choice that new Korean. Film Planning to see that today. Yeah, I want to see that so bad. Yeah, I, I think that will be if we do another patron show like what we're watching, I think that we can like briefly discuss that one as well. Yeah, going for a double feature today. Highly recommend. It was just an accent. Christopher, Really. Yeah, highly.

16:23 Cool. It's a great companion piece with one battle after another. OK. Yeah, OK. Way different tone, similar themes I would say, but totally different tone. But it is one of the best. It would have made my top 10 of 20. I think I even put it on there after the fact. It's pretty incredible. Yeah, anyway. Yeah. Cycle 2. Should we dive into the background? Let's do it. Let's. Do it all right, Alfred Hitchcock passes away April 29th, 1980. He had suffered with like a series of health issues and chronic illnesses the last decade of his life in, I think it's fair to say, his career post psycho. He never quite hits the commercial or creative peaks that he does like. Psycho really is where it all culminates. He.

17:12 Slows down drastically like the last 20 years of his life. He makes 6 films, which by today's standards like 6 films in 20 years. That's a lot. That's a lot, yeah. Consider like in the he's he made 11 movies in 10 years and. After two years, some years, yeah, right. And the films are Like the Birds, Topaz, Torn Curtain, Marnie, Frenzy and Family Plot. And of those Like the Birds is obviously the most well known. It's a fun B movie. I really like Marnie. I think Marnie is great. I really like Frenzy. I just ordered that on 4K. But these are the lesser Hitchcock movies that Nolan's they're not many folks are going to put any of these in their top five, right?

18:02 So but what? Marnie is really Marnie's gotten is really been getting a lot of traction over the past like 10-15 years. It's interesting because you know, like, you know, Martin Scorsese champion something people are going to take notice and then coming back. So Marnie was is, I mean, it's obviously a controversial film for what's happening behind the scenes. Right. But I think it's a, it's sort of a fascinating, weird movie, but it's really gained a lot of respect, kind of a steam over the past, you know, even 20 years. So, but it's a movie that I've never really been able to connect with for whatever reason. Frenzy, like you said, I I like frenzy. It's lurid and gross and all of those things that Hitchcock probably wanted to do at other times, but you know. Are you surprised Frenzy never gets mentioned when film historians talk about like proto slashers and like the Because Frenzy is much more of a slasher movie and contains more of the tropes than Psycho does.

19:09 Than Psycho does yeah yeah it is that is interesting I wrote about it for bloody disgusting you know for its 50th anniversary which was what four years ago now but Frenzy and I think I might have mentioned something about it it's kind of interesting because it's written by the same person who wrote The Wicker man so it has it's very British it's more about it's sort of a combines the Hitchcock wrong man scenario with you know the psycho killer on the other end and it's I don't know it's one of those movies that is really divisive some people love it like we are talking about here and others are just like it's just garbage I I feel which.

19:55 Is really an interesting this is the movie I think that Quentin Tarantino references when he says directors need to hang it up after a certain amount of time and I don't get that I. I don't get that either. I think this is actually I think it's actually a revitalization. Yeah. You know, of of the movie, because after torn curtain is sort of a drag. This is and Frenzy is a big step up. And then Topaz is the one that I would maybe mention as the one where older directors hang it up. But Family plot is kind of fun. It's it's OK. It's sort of a fun little caper movie. That's the one with Bruce Dern, right? Bruce Dern and it's got like Karen Black, who has sort of got an iconic look in that movie.

20:40 It's it's. Yeah. It's a fun little movie. I I nearly tossed that on last night 'cause I rewatched rope because why not? Yeah, and it was one in the morning. And I'm like, you know, I kind of wanna be able to get up and do a few things before we record. So of course, sleep one out, which is rare. Well, what does happen during this period in Hitchcock's life towards the end post the Birds getting around like 66 is there becomes like a critical reappraisal of Hitchcock's work at that point. Like, he was called the master of suspense. He was considered a brand of an in and of himself, but he was considered.

21:20 Look at that. You knew exactly where we're going. For the listener at home, Brian has just reached onto his bookshelf and produced a copy of Hitchcock Truffaut, the book of interviews between Francois Truffaut and Alfred Hitchcock. So, Brian, what can you tell us about the historical impact of like Truffaut's work with Hitchcock, these these series of interviews he did and the book he publishes? Well, I think that there was a conception among American critics that Hitchcock was fluff, that it was just, you know, it was cotton candy and fun, but not not anything of real cinematic value.

22:01 No craft to it. Right, exactly. But Truffaut and Goddard and the whole Calle du Cinema folks, which, you know, watch Nouvelle Vague on on Netflix, the Richard Linklater movie, to get a little more of that stuff. They really saw something else in American movies, particularly Hitchcock, Howard Hawks, you know, people like Orson Welles, certainly even Michael Curtis, who is just now sort of gaining more respect in the United States as he should, right? You know, George Stevens, William Wyler, people like that. So, but especially Hitchcock, I think. I mean, people were like realizing not only is Hitchcock crafting his films well, he's inventing visual cinema in a lot of ways. Creating a new film language more or. Less Yeah, yes, I mean, the the light. We know what it looks like for a killer to walk up a staircase and what it looks like for a victim to walk up the staircase because of Alfred Hitchcock.

23:04 Yes. You know, I mean those those are the kinds of things that that we're seeing in this, you know, the high angle stuff we talked about in the psycho episode and you know, all those just visual pure cinema things he does are I think it's a big part of the focus. But also there's just the idea of the thematic through line, you know, of and and this is where the auteur, the auteur theory comes in, which, you know, you can buy into that or not, but it for better or worse, placed the director of a movie as the author of a film. And I think Hitchcock is is actually a really prime example of that because, you know, even though he didn't write any of his scripts, he did shape all of the scripts with the writers he. He.

23:58 And all. Yeah, he and Alma together. Absolutely. And she thank you for mentioning that because I mean, that is so important to everything Hitchcock did. Is Alma revel Hitchcock? But I think that's that's kind of fairly what we what we know is, you know, people really started to say, oh, Hitchcock is actually serious cinema on a level with, you know, the most respected film makers of the era. So that that's I think Truffaut in particular goes a long way in making that happen. And it's like, and not just like not just like respected, but like hip, you know, he's Hitchcock is cool. And so that's a that was a big deal. And it was a big deal for Hitchcock. Like he, he was a man with an ego. I mean, there's no other way around it. Like in that the heaping of praise that he received, like he maintained like a lifelong friendship with Trofo after this, that they wrote to one another regularly and warmly. And I think one thing.

25:11 This book was expanded, I'm sorry to interrupt this book was expanded several times because he to encompass Hitchcock's last movie. So because he went, he talked to him about all of them. He's not quite as open about the more recent ones, but he, you know, but he's, but you know, he's willing to talk about it with someone who he respects. Yeah, all of that is just to set a little bit of the table to say that it didn't look like #1 sequels weren't necessarily a big thing at this time. Like you don't get, like, there's a lot of reasons you don't get a sequel to Bonnie and Clyde, was what I was going to say.

25:52 Well, really, just one. Just one reason, really. It's really not until the 70s you start to see sequels become a thing where there's The Godfather 2, where there's the French Connection to the Exorcist 2, Rocky 2, that point Jaws 2 at that point. Like it was more OK this movie was great, move on to the next project. And sequels were kind of expected to do less than the original, which is the inverse now. It was like if a sequel made 2/3 of what the original film made at the box office, it was like that was considered a win. Great. Success, right? Considered a yeah, it was just expected to be less than. So all of that. Like nobody was probably even thinking in a serious way of making a sequel to Psycho, let alone doing it when Hitchcock was alive.

26:43 It's not really till after he passes that the wheels start turning. So starting in 1982, the author of Psycho, writer Robert Block, he is writing up and Brian has look at that, all of these just props right at the ready. A copy of Robert Block's Psycho too. So, and the key thing here is Robert Block has the book rights to Psycho. Like he's allowed to write anything he wants regarding Norman Bates, the mates Bates Motel, that's all his. However, Universal has like the movie rights like block doesn't necessarily have.

27:25 He doesn't have the right to sell this work in order to like profit from a movie deal. But he's working on a a sequel to Psycho, which would ends up much different from the movie. Universal reads the novel before it's published and they're horrified by it. They're like, this is awful, like they have no intention of using it for a starting point. Which? I've read the book, Brian. I got a little of an understanding, like I'm sure you've read it. I have. Tell us about it, Brian. OK, it's, it's like you said in the notes, Mike. Yes, it is a it is a kind of a meta thing because Norman finds out through his doctor that there's a film being made about his crimes.

28:12 And so he escapes from the asylum by killing a nun and dressing in her habit. And he takes the other one with him and sexually assaults her, which is really gross. And it's very graphic and escapes. And then I, I, I feel like if I explain it, it'll give away what happens because, OK, what happens? Norman dies like, early on. Yeah. But we don't know that Norman died early on until you get to the end of the book. Someone, someone else has taken over his persona and is and heads to Hollywood and starts murdering people on the set and involved with the film.

29:00 Yeah, it kind of has that vibe now. Child of child of Chucky as well, right? Sure, Yeah, yeah, exactly. And talent Bob Strike back only with. There you go. Yeah, there you go. But The thing is, I mean, yes, it does have an assault scene. That's pretty gross. But for the most part it's kind of a fun read and it has sort of interesting stuff. But it is the kind of movie. I don't think it's filmable. It's it's one of those where I don't think it would work very well as a movie. But you know, you never know. Sometimes people find an inroad, but I it's I it's never going to be made now.

29:40 But right, it's it's just a very different approach than the movie we got. Well, but what's what's? Funny is you kill its lead character like in the fur. And what would be the prologue, really? American Psycho 2 does like the same thing, and it's also considered trash. It's also, yeah, bad. Well, the person who finds the inroad it's Australian director Richard Franklin. He and Robert Block like run into one another at like a science fiction like film writer, film critic, film director, writers convention in in New Zealand. And Franklin is a protege of Hitchcock. He's like he's someone who's like studied him. He hosted panels with Hitchcock at USC and he asked Block what he's working on and Block lets him know I'm working on a novel, Psycho 2.

30:33 Franklin agrees like this is a trash book. Like it's does not sound appealing except for one thing. And the in for him is 22 years after the original Norman is set free and he goes home. That for him is like what the appeal is. And that's the hook that he takes when he is asked to join this product. And you know, Brian, I'm going to lean on you a little more here because I think you and I have some like notes on Franklin as someone who studied under, I don't want to say studied under Hitchcock so much as he had a lot of respect for him and did host him at his university as well. Right, Right. Yeah. Now what I know about Franklin is that he's just for me.

31:16 He's, I like him as like a protege or a disciple of Hitchcock a lot. I think he kind of takes the ideas and sort of the craft, you know, elements what works, the language and applies it to his movies in a way that doesn't feel like he's just ripping him off. And I have, I really like Rd. games. If you've never seen Rd. games with Stacy Keach and Jamie Lee Curtis is fantastic and highly recommended. And it's basically rear window on the road. And so he keeps on passing like these different cars and you see these different people who have different lives in these different cars. And then, you know, they kind of run afoul of a of a serial killer.

32:06 And it's a terrific film. So that's, I think probably the movie that got him Psycho 2, you know, set in stone to do Psycho 2. And it's it's, yeah, it's terrific. Yeah. I highly recommend that one. I haven't actually seen. I looked at the other movies on his filmography and I haven't seen very many. I've seen Cloak and Dagger. I think Patrick might be what he's best known for outside of this movie. Yeah. Cloak and Dagger, which she does with Tom Holland after this. Yeah, they caught her up again. Yeah, and I, I like both of those movies. I saw Patrick. Patrick is a little bit of, you know, sort of Kerry esque in a way with with a comatose patient.

32:47 It's an interesting movie. And yeah, Cloak and Dagger. I mean, that was sort of like a staple of kid life in the 80s, I think. That was like HBO or Showtime, like all the time, all the heavy rotation. Yeah, on the early days of cable. Well, speak like the early days of cable. Universal Studios, like they they're not keen on making a sequel to Psycho at all. Like they don't really have any interest, maybe in part because they were just turned off by Block's upcoming novel, But when they initially green light the sequel, they're not going to put the movie in theaters. They are going to release it straight to cable television, which in the early 80s cable T VS Not in every household.

33:34 It's probably only in about 10 to 15% of households by that point in the 80s. Like it's still like a very new idea. So not only are you not going to get it in a lot of households on top of that, I think it was like Showtime who they were thinking of, like giving the film to that 10% of the households that cables in, maybe 10 to 20% of the people have access to Showtime. So. You're not talking about really having a big audience for this movie at all. Like if it was a movie of the week, like if he had put it on ABC or CBS, that would have, you could have said like, that would be a really big deal because those movies routinely brought in like 20 million, 30 million people viewers every week.

34:25 And then it would be rewatch. But putting it on Showtime in 1983, maybe a couple million people have access to it. Right. I mean, even by the time they did Psycho 4I, I mean a lot, a lot more people at Showtime want to aired there. But still, I mean, I didn't see Psycho 4 till years later 'cause we didn't have any of that premium pay stuff. Yeah, Yeah. It's a dumping ground. I mean, it would be it would be like it would be like selling an original movie to like Pluto TV at this point or the Roku Channel right now. Like not one of your go to like I know like Toby has been doing like Toby originals and. Yeah.

35:06 Your mileage will vary on those, but that would have been like the only equivalent I can think of in 2025 and far fewer people would have access to it back then. They hire on Hilton A Green as one of the producers of the film. He had been an assistant director for Hitchcock on Psycho and other works with Hitchcock for about 20 years. He was very worried about how the film was going to be received, so he made sure once the script was completed, he wanted to make sure that like Patricia Hitchcock, Alfred and Alma's like surviving daughter that like she would sign off on it, which she does.

35:46 After reading the script. Franklin is hired to direct. He hires writer Tom Holland to write the movie and no, it is not the Tom Holland from a trilogy of well received Spider Man movies. While this is the man who would go on to direct the original Fright Night, the original Child's Play and A Matter of Fact, like it's the reception from Psycho to that kind of gives Holland the ability to kind of take that next step and move into directing. But Franklin had liked his work and it wasn't on. There was The Beast Within, I believe, which he did not like. And I think he joked with Holland. If I had seen that film, I probably would not have hired you for this. But there's another script he had written and I don't have it at my fingertips that he really liked the work. He thought it did a great job of building suspense and atmosphere.

36:38 And Holland was hired based on that. And for Holland, like the hook was keep Norman sympathetic like the first film had done, highlight that struggle to hold on to insanity. Like, you need to keep him. Yes. He's like, you know, maybe we'll talk about is he even the villain in this movie? He's really not. He's your. Assumed villain, but you need to kind of keep him sympathetic throughout. He's kind of your final girl, honestly. That's yeah, kind of is kind of have the Tucker and Dale versus evil thing of it where it's like all of these deaths are kind of happening. To college kids. And he has really nothing to do.

37:19 Yeah. Yeah. So which. Yeah, you're right. Or high school kids. So anyway, Anthony Perkins is a hard no at first, partially because it wasn't Tucker and Dale versus evil, but psycho. I think that's. Well, that's understandable. Understandable. Perkins was angling to direct the film. He also, like we talked a little bit about this when we did Psycho. He did not want to talk about Norman Bates at all for a long. Time felt. He was really pigeonholed, left Hollywood for a number of years and like, went over to make films in Europe. Like he actually bought himself out of his contract, Paramount, because he was tired of like the roles he was being pigeonholed with in the 70s as well. He undergoes conversion therapy.

38:05 Like he was a queer man. He had only had male relationships. I think he says in an interview he had his like first like heterosexual experience in, in his. He's so in the 70s, like the studios basically tell him you're going to go through conversion therapy or else, right? So it's a man who's really struggling and I have to say a ton because like, you know, don't have like a ton of information, but he does marry in like the mid 70s, which gives us Osgood Perkins and as well as Elvis Perkins, one of I think who has composed some of the works for his brother Osgood. I think so, yeah. But it's much of a good experience that Anthony Perkins had making Psycho, the aftermath of it and everything that he felt limited to, both in like, roles he was offered as well as like how he was treated by studios for his queerness, really left a sour taste in his mouth. Yeah.

39:08 And it sucks because you know, the movies that the non psycho movies, some of them that are sort of these underground cult movies that are like pretty poison is so good. He was a director in a movie called Play It as It Lays, which is really great. And yeah, there was some there was some interesting things that he did and he wrote, he Co wrote a great mystery movie, The Last of Sheila I. Love the last of Sheila. Oh my God, that movie's amazing. Yeah, he Co wrote that with Stephen Sondheim. He's incredible in Orson Welles, The Trial. Not to be the guy that he's asking at Orson Welles, but no, you're amazing. Absolutely.

39:49 So there. There's a lot of a lot of movies he made outside of Psycho between, you know, between 1960 and 1982 that are really, really terrific that I hope, you know, now that we have the Internet, we can see a whole filmography of someone and you can seek out those movies pretty easy now. I it's, it's, which is we live in an amazing time for that. Yeah. Right. So I really hope that people might do that. He's also in a crazy Ken Russell movie called Crimes of Passion, where he plays a fetish priest. Kind of.

40:30 Yeah. It's a very, Yeah, I've heard of that. If you know anything, if you know anything about Ken Russell. I would. Say, shocking. Yeah, lots of, lots of, lots of, lots of kink in that movie. What? Tell me more, Brian. Interesting. What? Yeah. So anyway, just throwing those out there as possibilities for your. Viewing enjoyment I also want to point the listeners to a really great profile on Perkins that was done by YouTube. Matt Baum, who does like queer history in film and television, has a really good kind of biography of him on his his channel that he did a couple years ago that is really, really incredible and kind of tracks his queer journey a little bit more, which is is very interesting so. Yeah, throw us a link.

41:14 We'll maybe even put that in the notes here as well. Sure, I'll look for that right now. So when Perkins initially says no, and the idea is like, well, it's going to be a cable movie anyway, Christopher Walken is approached to take over the role of Norman Bates, which fascinating. It's. Fascinating. I kind of wonder if he would Telegraph, but he is capable of playing. I mean like in the dead zone. For example, he's coming off the dead zone. Yeah, yeah, I, I was very. Sympathetic in that film, yeah. Absolutely. So, you know, it's a he's, he has not yet sort of become what we think of when we think of Christopher Walken.

41:56 Right, I think. Well, Perkins does. They get him a copy of the script and they're like, just read it. Just like, tell us what you think and consider it. And he reads it and he loves the script. He sees what Holland is going for in the portrayal of Norman. And he sees it like that sympathy for Norman is coming through. That struggle that he's going to face in this film is coming through. So he signs on board. He's like, you know what? I'll do it. I'll come back. I'll play the role in Universal Shifts. They're thinking they're like, you know, instead of making a super cheap made for cable TV movie, what if we made a super cheap theatrical movie instead?

42:38 Like we will release this in the theaters. Basically, yeah, yeah. To the point we'll talk before we talk about the house and in the motel again. Now they need to find their Co lead casting Mary and there's a pretty wide search for this role like Linda Hamilton who was then unknown auditions for it, Kathleen Turner audition and the thought was like she's great, she's amazing. She's way too strong a presence. Like they could not. Kathleen Turner. Really. Yeah. No one could see Kathleen Turner falling for Norman Gates in this movie, which is fair. I mean, yeah, I think that's a fair.

43:19 It would be a much different movie. Carrie Fisher auditioned as well, and they liked her enough where they were going to offer it to her. I think Holland says that, like, Fisher talked them out of offering it to her, like after the audition and he's like. I think she was busy. She also might have been shooting Return of the Jedi. Like, he's like, I think she had something else. And I'm like, well, the times line up where she has to go back and do Princess Leia. Yeah. Both movies come out in 83, so yeah, tracks. Right at the same time too, like, yeah, Jedis and theaters when Psycho 2 comes out. Holland says he's like Fisher mentioned Meg Tilly to him and Meg Tilly like she had been a dancer who suffered like a career ending injury, so she turned to acting instead, which one does Like I'll just take on this completely unrelated thing.

44:09 And at that time, she's unknown, but she had drawn some praise for her work and thumb. Mclaughlin's one dark night. McLaughlin would go on to do Jason Lives Friday the 13th Part 6, IE the funny one, IE maybe the second best one in the whole series behind Part 4I. Come on, you're raising your. I actually look, I actually put part. 6 #1. I don't 6 is my favorite. I don't, 6 is my favorite. What? We've Mike, We've discussed my controversial Friday the 13th takes on this podcast. Remember. I like 7 sevens, the one I like. Sevens not good. That's what I keep hearing, and yet I disagree. Well.

44:50 Meg Tilly was good. Good enough? My. The ranking is the only correct ranking of Friday the 13th series, so you know. You and everyone else, Brian. Yeah, but three of your movies are Nightmare on Elm Street movies like there's. 3 like. Brian Wes Craven did not direct Friday the 13th like this false you. Guys just like to fuck with me. #3 people under the senior tracks number. 4. Anyway, Tilly's hired on board and, you know, she's going to go on to, like, earn an Oscar nomination in a Golden Globe Award for Agnes of God. The same here, I think. Yep. Like, soon after. Like, they get her pretty early. They're in. Yeah. Why did she leave acting?

45:32 I mean, she goes on to become a writer. I do not know. Like I don't have a lot of She's the the younger sister of Jennifer Tilly who would go on who we love was not performing at this point, who no one has ever looked better in a movie than she does in Bride of Chucky. I love Jennifer Tilly so much. Have you ever seen the movie Let It Ride with Richard Dreyfuss? I have not. Jennifer Tilly is. Richard Dreyfuss. Movies. Fair enough. Jennifer Tilly is in that, though, and she might be in competition with herself. OK, fair enough. She Yeah. So I that's that's a that's AI haven't seen bound. Bound is really, yeah, bound. So great.

46:13 There's a lot of great Jennifer. Tilly material out there? Meg Tilly, I think kind of transitions to writing and she's she's written several books actually. So there you go. I think that's why she kind of left acting. My wife is just sending me random furniture as we record which she knows I hate. Just those that I hate. Like just text me random. Random ferm, yeah. Just something that she does. I'm like, please stop. And she'll just keep keep doing it. Stress like around your apartment or just while she's out and about somewhere? No, just like I'm like, hey, I'm looking. From the Internet. And she'll just send me like 30 different things to consider and I'm like, this is stressful.

46:54 I know you're not doing anything right now, but talking about movies, yeah. So here's 50 pictures of furniture. It's just, yeah, I'm not kidding. Like, here's the side table. And then she sent my daughter vanities. This is very fascinating and fascinating for our listeners, the psyche. Behind the curtain like. This is what happens. I've I've like, hey, just stop texting our kid random furniture because it stresses us out and she's like, no, I'll just send it to you now. So took a bullet for the kid. Well, Perkins, like, tries to have Tilly fire twice on set, like they did not get along with one another. I think Vera Miles also had some issues with her as well. Holland wrote about it and he spoke about it a little bit. He kind of dances around it.

47:40 But I think the feeling was like Tilly had not seen the original Psycho. And I think at one point, like asked out loud, why is everybody treating Anthony Perkins like he's the star of this movie? Like she just didn't get it. Wow. That was one of the things that came out and that's. Amazing. That's amazing. I love that so. Much. And she pushed back on him a little bit. Like, good for her. Like she kind of holds her ground. Sure. Yeah, it's going to be. Interesting, that's your answer as to why she left acting. Maybe. You know, maybe just some bad experiences. Maybe I like writing better. It's going to be interesting talking about Perkins, especially in the later mood when you get to Part 4.

48:21 He like, really gives Mick Garris a hard time over like every little thing. Like he basically. Richard Dreyfuss. Yeah, you know, that sort of thing. Yeah, he basically Richard Dreyfuss's Mick Garris during that. I just don't like Richard Dreyfuss. I. Don't even know what that means, but I'm not sure. He's just being a Dick. You know, I, I had my, my, my Co host holy terrors Pat one day, he said. You know, I just watched Jaws and it's almost a perfect movie except Hooper should die at the end. Yeah. So like. Anyway. I mean. So he's like, there's no like, there's no reason why Hooper should live in this movie. I do like that anyways, I'll disagree with your Co host there. Yeah, yeah, I, I do.

49:05 I was just. Because I think that little moment at the end that Brody and Hooper have is really good. I agree. But you know, if Richard Dreyfuss were to drown, then you know Pete, no big deal. Hooper should survive Hooper. Should serve Richard Richard Dreyfuss, but Rich Dreyfuss should right at the the. End of Jaws if I don't know who's the guy that plays Khan in Star Trek 2? Ricardo, Ricardo. Makarov if he pops up at the end of Jaws and it's like it. Like like. Cooper, it's you. Like that would have been absolutely amazing. That is a moment. That was a moment.

49:47 That would have been Jaws. Six stars. That would have been amazing. All right, I do want to say the the remaining cast and crew, Holland and and Franklin, they do speak very highly of Meg Chili. Like they had no issues and they fought. They're like, no, we're not firing her and not replacing her. Like absolutely. She's very good in this. Movie till he's very good in this movie as well like she's perfect for the role that's written here. Sarah miles comes back as Lila Loomis and I have an ick there for the Loomis part of it. It's like that we'll talk about that. She had been semi retired by then but she was on board for the heels right. I think when she read the script, she's like, I get to do this, like just RIP lung darts and try to drive a man crazy. Absolutely sign me up for this.

50:31 And she basically would regale the crew with like shit talk about Alfred Hitchcock and John Ford. I mean. Really. Which I'm sure they were all there for. She's like, you know, John Ford was such a bastard. You know, I'm sure that there was plenty of time. Yeah. There was this one time, you know. Yeah. And I think it was like good-natured, but there was some intent behind it. It's like those between the lines there other cast members a note like a young Dennis Franz looking like us. The second runner up for Ron Jeremy look alike contest. Yes, Sheboygan County Fair. It looked like he just ate an entire plate of Polish sausages and then came to set Just. Yeah, it's just like.

51:11 Meat sweats pouring off, Yeah. And they, Franklin and Holland, they credit, they do credit Brian De Palma for like discovering France, like he had done some work on body double. And oh, yeah, they were like really happy to get him on. You know, he just, he's sweaty his hair, like he's just like, give me a. He's so perfect for that role. He gives. He's actually, he might be. He might be my favorite thing about this movie. He's something, you know, depending on the day. I'm like, man, he's so entertaining. Just that Dick, unapologetic Chicago accent, like Oh my God, it's amazing. So perfect the way he. Speaks the title of the movie into like every. Other psycho. Pick it up.

51:53 Come on, psycho. Yeah, he just. Like, was it like screwing that psycho? Yeah. Like what kind of were the kind of motel that makes money just like you know? Yeah. They come here. Fire me. They come here to screw, you know, and have a good time. Yeah. Love it. He's really fun of this. The other cast ever a note Mr. Robert Loja. So we need to talk about Mr. Robert Loja a bit. Robert Loja. To to the rest of the show in that you're Robert Loja voice so. Hi, Mike. It's me, Robert Loja. One of the great character actors. You know, a real 100. Percent.

52:35 Yeah, he's. Basically any, but also. Capable of like really deep sensitivity too. Like I saw him last year in the M Night Shyamalan film Wide Awake and he is like really like sweet and sensitive and sentimental in that too. Like he's just able to make these wild swings in his acting persona and it I think that's what makes him so great as an actor. He's the toy, the toy store. The toy store. Dancing. The big Yeah dance dancing on the pants. That's where I first knew of. Robert Loja I mean, I. First saw him as the asshole grandfather in Over the Top, which I did see in theaters. I did see that theatrically. I have still not seen that, but it's. Awesome.

53:20 It's like Rocky 4 but with arm. Wrestling. If you only. The Russians. One arm? No, but it's against like King Hippo and the Mike Tyson punch out like that is dude. OK, got. It with muscle. OK, Brian, if you only watch one movie about competitive arm wrestling this year, you have to make it. Make it over to the top, yeah? It's isn't it? Isn't it? Aren't there semi trucks in that one as well? There are. There's like a semi trucks. Yeah. I think I caught like 5 minutes of it on on like TNT when I was a child. How do you only watch five? You see Stallone driving an 18 Wheeler doing this? I was like, I'm gonna do the. Oh, he's turning around the hat.

54:04 He's turning the hat around. Backwards like is a young 12 year old Steven sees that you how are you not in for the. Rest of that I was much younger than that. I was probably like 8 or 9 honestly. Like still. I don't know. I was, I was. I was trying to find cartoons, Mike. That's what I was. Into it's pretty much a cartoon. It's pretty much a cartoon. Over the time as a certified Stallone fan, I I'm gonna have to catch up on this one. OK, not a not a big fan of the, you know, latest, you know, political. Stances of the man. But yeah, as the icon, Sylvester Stallone, I love the man. I love the pose, the actor.

54:49 We do over the top as a watch along for the Patreon page, but you guys, it has to be your first. Time it has to be. Our first yes, I'm you know what? I'm in for that. I would do that. We'll. Set that, Brian. Not as excited, Steven. Yeah, I'm in, Brian. OK, if I have to, I'll do it. Sure. Who, if we ever have like a pod and pendulum gathering, like we just meet somewhere in the country? I would love that, yeah. Which we need to do. We need to maybe do a competitive arm wrestling which. What are you trying? To do to me, Mike. We should just like find a I.

55:29 Haven't been to the gym like all year. Same. Well, I mean. Speaking of him not shopping a lot. Here is all like that guy in that movie, but just. Working out the one arm so I can win this thing. I mean all school year, so, you know, it's been a few months so you know, every day. Yeah, yeah. So I yeah, I'll just do the one arm thing. Yeah. There we go. That's it. I'll just one dumbbell and just keep going all. Right now she's just emailing the whole thrift stores. Just thrift stores. This is a. Really exciting subplot. Psycho. Psycho too. Well, the other thing Robert Loja I think might be best known for is this little commercial from the early 90s.

56:12 I present to you guys Robert Loja, orange juice pitchman. And we're going to play that for you here folks, cuz I've listened to this, no, no lie, like 100 times over the preparing for the show. This is, this is what we say. It sparks joy. So let me just give me the thumbs up if you guys hear it on the feed, all right? Try some new minute made orange tangerine. It's got calcium. Then I'm not drinking it. Oh no, it's sweet. You'll like it. I don't believe you. Well then, who would you believe? I don't know Robert Loja. Really. Your mother's right. No Minute Maid Orange tangerine tastes great.

56:53 This got as much calcium as milk. If you say so, Mr. Loja. Yeah. This is great. Enjoy your breakfast. New Minute Maid Orange tangerine with calcium. Yeah, no Robert Loja. It's that last yeah, for me. Yeah, yeah, a couple of things. Because like, this is an audio medium, would you and I, I strongly encourage every listener pause the show, go watch this commercial. Like just put the link. In the show, you might as well. Might as well a when he walks in for the first time, like the mom's face, like she's like knows that someone's getting laid and it's mom. Like she looks psyched, like Robert Loesch is about to lay some pipe, you know?

57:38 Robert Loesch is going to plow Mom later. The your. Mother's right. Dad looks like a a young Elias Cateus as well like character actor Elias Cateus. But what do you think goes beyond in like a pitch room in the 90s where you're Don Draper of whatever of, of Coca-Cola products is like, we what we really need to sell this orange juice to kids is character actor extraordinaire Robert Loja. Or Loja, I think you work backwards. Like Robert Loja is wanting to pitch something. What do we have, I don't know, orange juice. How do we pitch orange juice with Robert Loja? And they, they craft the most absurd scenario possible. And it's that.

58:22 Yeah, like, that's that's the only way. I think you have to reverse engineer that shit in my mind. And the kids performance is like, it's Emmy worthy, like. It makes it work, you say? So, Mr. Lotia. Because his face really makes cheeks puff out when he like sees and like just the kids react. Here's some orange juice. And the kids like, it's like it has calcium. It tastes great. He's like, I don't believe you. Like, what kid says that? And it's the 90s. So that commercial could have gone a lot different way where the next thing you hear is just some kid getting like smacked across the face and it's APSA for like, not beating your kids at the breakfast. Table. I learned it from watching you, dad. I learned it from watching Robert Loja. You know who but like who would you but the dad like bargaining? Like who would you believe?

59:14 And, and just I just love that you speak his name and Robert Loja appears much like Joe Hendry. Just would that it? Would that it? Still happened because like Robert Loja busting through the door, like Oh my gosh it. Yeah, it's. That is a piece of outsider art. It really is that. That's not a commercial. That's a piece of outsider art. I'm just going to play it one more time, then we'll move on because it's just believe you. Try some new minute made orange tangerine. It's got calcium. Then I'm not drinking it. Oh no, it's. Sweet, you'll like it. I don't believe you. Well then, who would you believe? I don't know Robert Loja. Whoa.

59:56 Your mother's right, Minute Maid. Orange tangerine tastes great. This got as much calcium. As milk. Breakfast. The ground. Yes, is what does it also how? Say so, Mr. Loeschow. How like he steps on Billy's line like, right away. Like, Oh yeah, he's just like Billy, you listen to your mom's, right? The steps on the kids line, like giving no quarter whatsoever. I love it. Petition to add your mother's right to the recurring soundboard on this podcast. He'll be chopping. We'll be particularly for the rest of this franchise, Yeah, in particular because.

1:00:40 Yeah. Unfortunately, yeah, Robert Loja is only in Psycho 2. Well, I know, but the mother, the mother element. And we also need Frank, too. Oh my groin. Hard work. I mean, we've, we've, yeah, a, a, a rap battle with like the Oh, my groin from George C Scott and Robert. Loja, Loja. We need some sort. We need some sort of mash up, all right? Yeah, your mother's right. Oh, my groin. Yeah. I mean, you know what's going. On It's a trap. I can't think of. Anyone I want to be in an orgy with less than like George C Scott and Robert Loja Dennis. Franz, the sweatiest origin would. Ever be there?

1:01:31 He would just be there watching. Just munching on Polish sausages in the well, great. God. Oh my gosh. All right, well, just wait until we add Jeff Fahey to the Mix and Psycho. I love Jeff Fahey. Love. Jeff, he literally does sit in the corner and watch in that movie. Jeff Fahey can do no Rd. Spoils. Brian, Yeah. Sorry. Well, well, who would watch on the set of? Trashy, trashy movie. Frank. And I love it so much. Franklin. He goes on to populate the is cutting right back in now like nothing has happened. Franklin goes on to populate the crew with a number of Hitchcock's former crew who, in his words, like they spoke respectfully but not particularly warmly about Alfred Hitchcock in their experiences. They did try to get his personal assistant to come on board. She politely declined.

1:02:30 Edith Head, who'd done all the costuming for Hitchcock throughout the 50s. She had an office like right next to the production on the lot as well. One thing to note, the Psycho house and the motel are like, they're not there when they start production like they had been, You know, we think of like the Universal tour and like, you know, vans going by, like the buses going by. Like that's such a staple of the back lot tour. It had been torn down like a few years. Like I think by like 63, the hotel is gone. It'd been repurposed for other sets. The Bates home is gone. So they have to recreate both.

1:03:12 And it's at a point in history where you can't just pick up like a DVD and like, counts, Like, they have to, like, get prints of the work and go through, like, books on the making of Psycho just to count how many stairs were used in order to create this set. So there were no blueprints for the house or the motel either. So they're kind of like running on like, well, let's, you know, the Franklin and and Holland, like, grab a lot of Hitchcock's old films and they're trying to, like, faithfully recreate it as well. So after this movie, yeah, these things would stay up for good. And I think it's fair to say, like, the movie's a success, but they've probably made its money back like 10 times over just on people taking like the back lot tour specifically to go see the Psycho house, right? Yeah.

1:04:06 Yeah. Another person who doesn't return was composer Bernard Herrmann, in part because he had died on Christmas Eve 1975 shortly after turning in his score for Taxi Driver. So one of the producers that they do suggest John Williams because like every movie, like who do you like? Who should we get? John Williams. But Franklin's first choice was composer Jerry Goldsmith, who had scored the Star Trek films Alien. He does Kremlins like it's basically it's Williams and Goldsmith are. Like the two? Like they're the the gold standards, right? And Brian, maybe you can speak a bit more of like what makes him such a a respected composer?

1:04:52 Goldsmith is interesting because he, he's kind of more of a chameleon and then like Williams is you instantly recognize a Williams score. I, I think they're very thematically based for the most part, with few exceptions. So I mean, Williams is known for memorable themes. I think Goldsmith is more than he's got some memorable themes, like, you know, the Star Trek theme, for example. But he's more known for just like creating the right mood. Yeah, he, he can just nail it with the mood every time, doing things as diverse as, you know, something dark like this or Poltergeist. But then, you know, like the burbs or gremlins, which you know, right.

1:05:43 And then that's staying in the horror sphere. And I mean, he's Dante's guy. Like Dante uses him on every movie. Dante uses him on everything, used him on everything. And there's another one who there's another director. He used him all the time too. I can't, I'm spacing. But yeah, he's sort of. I remember, you know, in college people were like, oh, Williams is is the epitome. And Goldsmith is like, he's good. But you know, now as I've gotten older, I actually have kind of flipped that. I think that Williams is, like I said, memorable themes, unforgettable music. But at the same time, it's as far as musicality. I mean, just like throwing it on the turntable and listening to things.

1:06:39 I think that Goldsmith is more complex, is a little bit more able to do a broader variety of things. And this is not to disparage John Williams in any sense. I they're, they're not rivals. I mean, there was sort of this fake rivalry, no Beatles versus The Rolling Stones thing with them. But it's not really the case. I mean, they were colleagues and they respected each other. But I've really grown to appreciate Goldsmith so much more than I ever did before. I think he's, he was, he was brilliant and underrated in a lot of ways because he didn't, you know, have Star Wars and Indiana Jones and Superman and Jaws and you know, you know, he, he, he worked with, he didn't, he worked with the journeyman more than he worked with the otters, you know, and that's kind of the way it was so.

1:07:42 So many of Spielberg movies were so big, and Williams literally does. All of those, exactly. Like he he and and he's the king of the light motif. So like the the thieves are the big thing. And his themes are so very like Marian, exactly. Recognizable, instinctive. Yeah. So those are the things that people latch onto. I mean, there's a handful of Jerry Goldsmith's themes that I think most people know, like the Star Trek 1 and the Gremlins rag. And like, there's there's stuff that he's done that people know, but it's not because of the popularity and the ubiquity of Spielberg. I don't think he's he's not the household name that Williams became, right? Exactly. It feels like Brian, like what you just said, like persons who love film and love composing have a slight preference to Goldsmith over Williams. Like more so than just your casual movie watcher for like the reasons you expressed, which is that versatility that you can't necessarily pick out like a Jerry Goldsmith theme, like you or sound so much as like he can do a lot more. And he tends to work in a variety of genres where, you know, Williams is like the key, the king of like making that recognizable theme, like that thing that you're going to be humming when you walk out of the movie theater. Like he is the king of that.

1:09:05 And I love it when Williams was able to sort of stretch away from that, you know, like something like Catch Me If You Can, Yeah, which is a really unique score. But he didn't get to do that as much. He was sort of the big IP guy, right? And so when Williams was always able to, or I'm sorry, Goldsmith was always able to do stuff, that was the first because he wasn't always the big IP guy, right? As they're getting ready to like, wrap this movie up, one of the things that Franklin and Holland do, which I found really fascinating, like they knew they may be in for like a tough ride critically because they're doing something that so many critics would have thought of sacrilegious, like making a sequel to a Hitchcock film like Psycho.

1:09:57 And one of the things they did, which I found really kind of fascinating, to kind of like steel themselves against that because they gathered a lot of the reviews and clippings when Psycho was initially released. And we talked about this last week. Like Psycho would go on to be seen as a classic in one of the more innovative films that Hitchcock crafted, as well as one of the real like tent poles of of modern horror. But on his initial release, I don't want to say that it was, like, savaged by critics. There were a few that really hated it, but it got mixed to middling reviews. And Franklin and Holland, like, gathered all those clippings and read them and re read them to remind themselves. Like, critics don't always get it right right away. And if they were confident in the film that they created, they would they could be happy with the end result. And I really like that detail.

1:10:59 I thought that was a good. Yeah. Well, you were talking about when you talk about sequels, the sequels you mentioned were all of movies that had come out recently. You know, The Godfather Part 2 is 2 years after The Godfather, you know, I mean, so the Godfather hadn't become the Godfather yet. You know, when Part 2 came out, this psycho had become psycho. So to do a sequel to something that was so monumental is really daring, and I think that I have to give those guys credits for for, for being brave enough to really take this on.

1:11:42 Is. And for it to turn out as well as it does is pretty astonishing. Is this the first legacy legacy sequel? Like is this like I was one or one of? I was thinking the same thing and I can't think of another one, but I dare not say that it. Right until we've done the. Research, right? Yeah, but it. Returned to Oz must be after this, correct? It was later. I've never seen OK cuz that would be a longer one that would jump up. Absolutely mortified me as a kid. Yeah, that's one of the absolute kinder trauma movies. It's a. Yeah, it's a Gen. X millennial fever dream, like. Yeah.

1:12:23 Like that it or like 2 of the tent poles for that generation of things that freaked them the fuck out as kids. Yeah, I was a little too old to be freaked out by it, but return to Oz. Poltergeist 2? Absolutely. Just Star Trek 2? Absolutely. Star Trek 2. Messed me up. When I was young and saw them too young so because in the Black Cauldron that was another one with. Disney. Disney's like, hey, let's put out this creepy fantasy movie with a Witch King, you know? I mean, it's like, OK. Kids all over America just terrified. Absolutely. I mean, that was a wild time. We're kids just made of tougher stuff back then.

1:13:06 I can't imagine a studio releasing a movie now that would try to like, traumatize kids like that. I know, I mean, it's, it's wild because I, I did a piece on this too, because I mean like even Ghostbusters and Gremlins. Had some. They were PG ES and they had these like really scary elements to them. So, and that's The thing is these were all PG movies. Maybe a better question, Were parents made of tougher stuff? I, well, I think parents didn't care as much. They were kind of ignorant in a lot of ways. But also I think there was this magical thing that Hollywood executives had that kind of gave them the, the, the cojones to put this stuff out. And I can't.

1:13:49 Let me just check my notes here. I think it was called cocaine. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You beat me to my punchline, Mike. Yeah, damn. You beat me to my fucking punchline. How dare you? My. Goodness, I am so sorry I did not. Yeah, that's hilarious. I thought you were going to go somewhere. Else. Rules. No, no. I was 100% landing on cocaine. Where else am I going to land? Mike, come on. I apologize. Holland and Franklin were rewarded for their dairy not with cocaine, but with a maybe. Cocaine. Maybe cocaine, I don't know, Like we didn't talk about that in the book at least like last we have. To assume there was probably a little bit of cocaine. Last chapter of the making of book is like we got so fucked out of our Gordon Coke after I.

1:14:38 Love the Danny DeVito story. I love this. The Danny DeVito story. When he and Arnold Schwarzenegger go to a party and they have their last name spelled out in cocaine on the tables and I'm still like, Danny, look how much I have. Yeah. Dear God. It's such a funny story and Danny's like, why don't? Why is this all I get? Like come on, don't be cheap. I would think that if DeVito did all of the coke that Arnold he might die like he wouldn't be. Right. The 80s all right. The Why do we look back on you? Fondly. Released June 3rd, 1983 / 1000 Screens.

1:15:20 It comes in second at the box office for the weekend behind a little movie called Return of the Jedi. Not sure if you guys heard. Of that, I don't know what that is about, yeah. It makes about 8 million over its first three days, which basically double S and almost triples the production cost. And it's just shy of like $35 million domestically, which is, again, not bad for a movie that Universal wanted and dump. Like straight to cable television. I think like Holland writes about the marketing campaign where he's like, nobody knew how to market this movie. It has a great tagline that Franklin took authorship of saying it's 22 years later and Norman Bates has come home. And like, that's that's all you need. Like that's the hook that and the the one sheet of Norman and silhouette against the house on the poster. It's like, boom, there you go.

1:16:13 And they are. Struggling. Very evocative of Halloween. Yep. Yeah, which we'll talk about the Halloween comparisons here. Oh, I should have mentioned they did want at one point they wanted Jamie Lee Curtis to play the role of Meg as well. And she was like, no, thank you, I do not want to like that would have been. At that point she was kind of, I think that's the same year as Trading Places. So she would have been like leaving the scream Queen persona behind for good at that point. Yeah, but I. I. Could foresee her careers going up. In Scream. Yes. And did the other thing too that they mentioned. What's that, Brian? Tell me. She didn't show her tits till she went legit. There we go anyway.

1:16:58 He did it. He said the thing. Yay. Yeah. All right. I was quoting a movie. Everybody remember that. Thank you. Just yeah, Brian, is is not the filthiest member of our crew. I'll say this, Brian. Is our not hardly. I'm sorry I'm such a prude. Not a prude, I'm. Not saying I wouldn't say that either. I haven't been to as many orgies as you guys, so I mean, I can't even say orgies, Brian said. Orgies. It's like. Trying you have been to. Let me tell you something. Look at me. Look at me right now, Brian, lock in. You've been to exactly as many orgies as I have. Excellent. And it's been, I just want to say it's been many, many decades since for me, so.

1:17:40 Just to clear the. Air, just to clear up. Nobody, I said. However, that could all change if you pay us $8 a month at patreon.com slash on the pendulum. Like I said during our Eyes Wide Shut episode, the people you want to go are never the people that go. And I include, I include myself in that. Mix. That is a line directly from our Eyes Wide Shut episode. Imagine me in an orgy playing the Robert Loggia commercial. I'm Dennis Strong's in the corner with the plate of sausage. Let me get in the mood. And then over and over, just hitting the George C Scott man smash. Admiral Akbar would indeed be there. That's right, absolutely.

1:18:31 It absolutely is a trap. Oh. God. Where do we want? First trap, hey? Hey, where do we want to go? Let's talk about this. I don't know my. God, yeah. At this point, where do we start? The orgy scene, Yes. No, there's no orgy scene. I mean, let's start at the beginning with the the opening, the basically the Friday the 13th style previously on Psycho. Yeah, just replaying a scene from the first movie and being like, hey, you guys remember this, Remember this better movie that we're making a sequel to. Buckle up guys. It is a little interesting that they start with the shower scene.

1:19:12 It almost feels like Universal said, Okay, we gotta start with this. So shower scene and the house and switch to color. I do like the switch to color. I think that is a that is a cool effect. I think it works really well and it's just like denotes the passage of time, you know, if nothing else, I mean, it's and it's a really cool shot. I mean, it's a great evocation of the original without being an exact copy of it. Right. What? Are we making credits? Of Norman being let go, like being found not guilty. Like famously like Ed, Ed Gein was considered not guilty by reason of insanity, which is a very difficult plea. Like I think you see it work in movies with a far higher success rate than it does.

1:20:02 Like it's a very difficult thing to prove this, but it speaks. Literally just watched a movie about that last week. I watched Friedkin's. I watched Friedkin's rampage. That's AI would say one of one of Friedkin's. It's impossible to find, like you can't find it anywhere. It was just it was just released by Kino Lorber on 4K. OK, buying that because I need to watch that in better quality than I did because I had to dig to find that one and it was a really shitty transfer. So I'll I'll have to check that out. Yeah, but it is largely about the insanity plea. And in fact, like the insanity plea is too easy. We don't want this guy to get off for reason of insanity, you know?

1:20:45 Right. It's so it's it, that's what it's going for. And so, yeah, the movies would lead us to believe that that's the way that all juries are going to go. So. It's an. Seriously. The reality? It's an interesting dilemma in this movie because like you, Vera Fields as Lila here, you do feel for her, like she's lost her sister, like she's never going to get her back. And it feels like no one's at least even listening to her or entertaining the idea of like putting the brakes on this thing. And it's a bit accompli, as a matter of fact. Like she, I mean, she's chastised by the judge in the case for overstepping her bounds and interrupting the proceedings. But on the other hand, like if Norman was really like out of his mental capacity, if he was really, you know, not able to like understand or comprehend his actions and he's received proper care and treatment for 22 years. Like do we believe in the idea of like rehabilitation in that? So like, I, I think it's an interesting and it's not necessarily explored with a lot of depth. It's more of like this is the inciting incident, but it's an interesting concept to explore.

1:22:04 Yeah, and go ahead, Steven. Oh. No, I was just gonna say, yeah, no, I I think it's very interesting, but the movie doesn't seem all that interested in it. Like it, it's like this is what needs to happen so the rest of the movie can happen. And so we kind of put it into play. But I mean, you could build an entire movie just around that question, and probably a very effective one as well that, you know, I, I, I I was about to say it would be very interesting to see this movie from that character's perspective. But given what that character does later in the movie, right? Maybe not, maybe not, but yeah. Where do your sympathies lie this early in the film? Like as you see these two arguments made. The interesting thing for me is at one point I paused the movie. It was shortly after Lila goes to the to the police station to yell at the sheriff.

1:22:54 I paused the movie to like get up, get a drink, and I said to my partner, it's kind of amazing how she's right. Like she's got a point, but no one's listening to it and she just come. Everyone's just treating her like a shrill bitch. And it reminded me of like the the Skylar White thing from Breaking Bad where it was like that she sucks and she's the she's the only character that's acting rationally in the entire fucking. Exactly. Right. And I'm just and then I'm and so and then I plus play and then like the twist happens like 10 minutes later and I'm like, Oh no, she's she is a shrill bitch. OK, OK, OK. Like, but I'm just like, it was kind of weird how like that in that thing, that twist kind of recontextualizes the first half.

1:23:35 But no, in the first half of the film, I'm kind of right there with her. I'm like, yeah, this makes a lot of sense. You are absolutely correct to be suspicious of this man given what has happened to your entire family. That makes a lot of sense to me. Like you were kind of thrust into the middle of this thing that happened is obviously very tragic and very traumatic for you. And then the man who killed your family is being set free and no one is listening to your very reasonable and rational issues with that thing happening. Everyone is dismissing you as a shrill badge and then surprise, you are a shrill bitch. And I'm just kind of OK. All sympathy gone at that point. Like, the writers don't want you to really take her side. So I think they write her that way. And then so it's maybe less of a of a blow when she does end up being, you know, the shrill bitch. I think my sympathies pretty much go to Norman right away in this one.

1:24:30 I don't know that I've ever thought about it, though. Why? It's just kind of, you know, he's Anthony Perkins and he's mild. He's the hero of the movie. He's no longer, you know, speaking in his mother's voice and he's he's just, he's apparently been at least, you know, maybe even 20 years that he hasn't slipped back into this other persona. And so but you know, like the doctor says at the end of the first movie, he's never all Norman. I think that is true. And you have always have that sense of awkwardness with and that's part of, you know, Perkins portrayal of of Norman is very nuanced and you know.

1:25:14 He's a great actor. Yeah. And and so I think there's I think that there's a lot of empathy that he is able to project right away from that character. And so I find myself almost immediately just jumping to Norman's side at the beginning of this movie. So. I don't think the writers want you to side with Lila, to be clear, like they want you to be on Norman's side. But it's just bringing up the question. I think it's very it's, it's an interesting thing to consider. Yeah, One thing I was thinking about, like the re watching this, I watch it like a few times ahead of recording, just like tend to do that is it's a little bit further ahead. Like when Norman is sitting at the table with Mary and he's like, do you know why I was locked up?

1:25:59 You I was locked up because when I was a boy I poisoned my mother. And what I don't hear Norman in that moment say is he doesn't talk about how I also, you know, murdered a woman that stayed at my hotel. And I don't I murdered the man who was investigating her disappearance. Like, he never mentions Marian Crane or Arbor Gas at all. He solely focused on the murder of his mother, right? And. Or the two other missing girls. Before that, two other. Mr. mentioned, I think. She says there's like 7 total. Yep, which I can only do 6 in my head so there's one. It's the mother, her lover, the 2 missing girls, Arbogast, Marian Crane and I don't know who the 7th would be so maybe her I. Mean they did.

1:26:47 Maybe they did drag this? Wrong person. True. Right. Yeah. No, I work in this field and I nothing to this extreme. Like, I don't work as as an inpatient coordinator or inpatient clinician, but I work with people that, you know, have been fairly traumatized by things that have happened to them in life. You know, there's the adage like hurt people hurt people. Like these persons have gone on to do great damage to like relationships in their life have hurt other people. And you know, one thing is like, you're responsible for your actions no matter what. Like if you're harmed in some way, like you need to take some accountability.

1:27:29 And there's not much like Norman can do to kind of repair the damage that's been done from the events of the first movie. But there's that lack of accountability saying like, I almost like he's still saying like, well, it was my mother and not him. And I said this on the first Psycho episode. We don't know anything about Norma Bates and how she treated Norman, right? Everything is from his perspective. I've always kind of even wondered if her name was actually Norma. Think it is because other people in the town. Say other people refer to her that as that. What a weird thing to name your kid Norman if your name is Norma, you know, so So if there hadn't been those sort of exterior comments about her first name, I kind of because there's not in the first movie.

1:28:19 There's only him coming in and screaming. I'm Norma Bates. Yeah. And, and so that that's one of those things that I if you just had the first movie where I would wonder if that was even her name, because everything we know about his mother is from his perspective, so. Maybe not this episode, but maybe like we do Psycho 3, I kind of want to ask, did Psycho ruin the name Norman? Potentially. And I'm not joking. I'm actually like, is it one of those names now that like he was so associated with the character that like you don't see a lot of Normans that are out there at this point? To be to be fair, you don't really see a lot of Freddies either.

1:29:06 That's true. Interesting. Or a lot of pin heads, which I don't know anything. Yeah. That is a name that is tragically dropped off. I agree. Leatherface, a certain name that has been lost in the sands of time. No, you're right. Like Freddie is not. But Jason still fairly. Jason and Michael both fairly. Popular, very popular names, I think like why this works and why my sympathy is like subconsciously drawn immediately to Norman. It's not just because he's our point of view character, because you can have a point of view character and be like, Nope, this person just makes me. I don't trust them. I think you trust Norman implicitly watching his journey here, and it's because of Anthony Perkins portrayal.

1:29:53 It really hasn't lost a beat like a lot of those. And the other thing is like he's still fairly young, like he's in his 40s when he films this. But it looked like the year, like it was a little bit of a weathered 22 years and Perkins went through. Like you see, he's aged in the 22 years in between movies. Yeah. He's lived a whole life. For sure. So thin. And he's, yeah, he's, he's just got, yeah, that look of lived life for sure, which also does add to the performance, yeah. You know. Perkins is no I, I think his, his performance is heads and shoulders, the thing that makes this movie as good as it is.

1:30:33 He's so, so incredible. I think because he got so pigeonholed into this role and so associated with this role, it's easy for us to forget how good an actor he is and how effective he is at the nuance and just being able to carry those emotions in just the slightest movements of his face or the slightest little waiver of his voice. And there seems to be a great deal of intentionality, like he's like, if I'm going to come back to this character, I'm going to do it right. And he does to his grand. He really brings it. If this movie could have been so abysmal had they not, had they had to go with someone else, had Perkins actually said no, because I don't think anyone else would have done, would have taken it as seriously as he takes it here. Even someone as sorried as Christopher Walken, frankly. I think that's probably the biggest weak point in Three is Anthony Perkins is distracted by directing the movie, so his performance isn't as strong, especially at the beginning. About halfway through, I feel like he settles into it again, but the first, first part of it is a little bit rough. But this performance is probably very nearly, if not as good as the one in the original.

1:31:49 It's just he really understands, like we said, those those nuances of, of what's going on inside of Norman's head. And I think that's why Hitchcock, you know, cast him in the 1st place because he's just, there's something about him that is a little bit like he's wearing a mask. Yep. Yeah. You know, well, like he's hiding things. And obviously he was. Right. Living as a closeted man in Hollywood, obviously hiding things. Yeah, yeah. Perkins friends and lovers like do talk about that about him a bit when they talked about Anthony Perkins, this idea that like Perkins like did present himself as like an aw shucks, like hands in his pocket, not quite knowing how to act like a little bit of like socially awkward, but in an endearing way, not in a you're going to eat your face way.

1:32:35 And his friends would say like some of that was an act like he knew that he could he could garner sympathy for himself in in that way. And there's a little bit of like of a show that's put on there in that portrayal of like, and some of his his partners would say like, they don't know if Anthony Perkins like knew who he really was as well. Like he was always trying to find some identity. And I think you, I think you see that here. I think like this is a Norman, like half of his life has been spent behind bars trying to get himself out from under this persona that he had developed out of guilt.

1:33:18 Yeah, absolutely. And so, yeah, that that I think uniquely makes him a unique individual with regard to the role and the character. And he and again, it it, it kind of sucks that he got so associated here because he's capable of so much more than just this. But this is all. And it was, you know, do the thing, say the thing. This is all. And and that's kind of what Hollywood does. Like you, they find a thing you're very good at and then they make you do it till you're 90, to quote Ryan Reynolds. And and he was so much bigger. I mean, it's why Mark Hamill went to Broadway for so many years. He's like, I don't want to keep playing you, Luke Skywalker, until I'm 70. And then he ended up playing him when he was 70. But it's neither here nor there, I suppose. Well, it's interesting that, you know, I mean, to break the typecast is real challenging for a lot of people. Mark Hamill has had kind of an interesting, you know, sort of third act here where he's in, you know, I mean, he's in life of Chuck and he's in long, long playing, playing really, really different characters than Luke Skywalker. And he wrote the House of Usher.

1:34:25 He's great villain. So it's and I think and and that's why I, I also just encourage people to check out Perkins other stuff because he really did have a great range and some really interesting roles he played. But I mean, I think the one, I think we also understand why this one has lived on is because it's so he's just so damn good in this role. I mean, I think we may have a project somewhere down the road in the near future to look at some of Perkins other work as well and we'll. Put that in there. I think that would be fantastic. The other thing that stood out to me as well in the early parts of the film is how there is no social safety net for Norman as well. Like his Doctor Raymond drives him home, drops him off, says phone is hooked up, call me if you need me. And like, Doctor Raymond is like literally all the support that Norman's going to get.

1:35:21 Like there's no one a like to immediately release him and just send him to his old home where all this trauma has happened to him, right? And I get it. It's a movie. Like I understand that. But it does like stand out that he's not in a halfway house getting like proper supervision, getting clinical care. And there doesn't seem to be any follow up visits that are like scheduled on the regular. There's like no team around him. It's like, oh, and by the way, you're going to go out and work this fairly public facing job as well. Like you're going to be out where all the townspeople, like the one diner in town. In the town that all this shit happened and not like 2 towns over where no one knows who you are like this is. Probably the diner that Norman recommend Marion goes to. When?

1:36:11 She said she was hungry, and he was like, oh, that's a diner. Like right down the road, probably that diner where everyone gathers and it's like the Cheers Bar of Fairvale. It's like everyone knows everyone's name in this town. Everyone's familiar with it. The town sheriff is like, yeah, I was on the force 22 years ago when this occurred. Like, even though like a whole generation has come and gone, everyone is still intimately familiar with, like, what has taken place at the motel and at the Bates home and like to go home to that. Like it. You can't blame him for being off kilter.

1:36:52 Yeah, And you know, when people are like, oh, so you're Norman. They all know who he is, and they all know you know ostensibly what he did. It's the Michael Myers thing. Like he's he's basically become a an urban legend around the town, like a local folk figure. Yeah, I do love like the especially these early scenes with Meg Tilly and Anthony Perkins as well, where he convinces her and I'll put convinces and quotes to come back to the home with her with him. And it's alternately like, charming but also a little bit sinister in his persistence because you know his history. And even without that, like watching it in 2026 terms, like his insistence that she come home with him and him trying to convince her to like stay despite her multiple times, like saying that she doesn't want to.

1:37:56 But you get down to that the discussion around the table with them, like there's a sweetness to it. And it gives you some nice like, visual insight as well to like the struggles he's going through. And there's a certain amount, of course, we know because of what happens later in the movie. There's play acting going on. She has to resist a certain amount and make it seem real and all of that. But there's this, I think this is starting to play up. But the sinister angle that you were discussing, Mike, I think is playing up. The question for the audience is, is he relapsing? Is he slipping back? And I think we were talking earlier about the not recognizing the murders that he committed. Oh, the reason I was locked up is because I poisoned my mother's tea.

1:38:39 That I think plays into that sinister nature as well because he's he's only revealing part of it to her. And so it feels like he's intentionally keeping something back in order to, again, kind of lull her into a false sense of security. And so I think that's definitely part of the trick the writers are playing on the audience to try to get us to maybe start to question whether or not Norman is in fact healed, for lack of a better term. And they're a little, you know, throwbacks or, you know, Easter eggs, I guess, from the first movie in that sense. Kind of serves the same meal to her, except it's in the kitchen instead of in the parlor. And the milk and using the big knife to cut them. Heat the.

1:39:24 Sandwich and have. He still can't say bathroom and I think that was a nice. Can't say bathroom. A nice little call back and my question for you both was can he not say bathroom because there's something lurid about it or can he not say that because like that is where his crimes took place? Like, you know, it's, it's hinted at in the first psycho. Like he pauses before he gives Marian room key #1 because that's the, I would say that's the killing room. Is that because there's like that residual trauma, that residual memory of like this is where the bad things happen? Or is it just bathrooms are so private? I think it's his mother, you know, I mean, it's probably going back to the Freudian stuff of, you know, Stefano from the first script.

1:40:16 It's it's just like, you know, that's where you know, poop is and that's where, you know, nakedness is and that's where, you know, all of these Freudian things are. And so his mother, I imagine there's still just trauma of the naughty boy. You know, that's that's where you have private stuff and I'm sure that you do naughty things in there. That's at least what Norman thinks his mother thought of it all. And so he still has that lingering in him. And I don't know if that would ever go away because I mean, psychophor, I mean, is going to show its hand as to what Norma was really like, but which is probably too much.

1:41:00 But our perception at least is that Norman has been abused by this woman for many, many years. And so I think that it's I think it's all linked to that. I think it's all linked to childhood trauma that he can't say things like bathroom or even, you know, referring to beds and stuff like that. I mean, I think he has just a lot of all of that just pent up. And no matter how much psychological, you know, therapy and all the stuff he's gone through, he can't really get over that. It's my perception at least. And I mean, I kind of got the implication that there was perhaps a kind of a sexual abuse nature in that relationship as well. Like it seems kind of, if not, I mean, it's obviously not overtly stated, but it feels almost inherent within the thing. So I have to wonder if the bathroom's not part of that. Sure.

1:41:56 The note I made, you know, we get a replay. We get another shower scene here. And obviously this one plays out differently. But there is the peephole. Like, there, the peephole is now like directly peers directly into the bathroom, not the hotel room itself. And you know, we talked a lot last time about how Norman had kind of carved a hole into the wall so his face could get as close to the peephole as possible. Like, we knew it wasn't his first. We're even doing this a long time. The peephole being in Norma's bedroom I thought was a really it was a really disturbing idea.

1:42:37 Definitely. It's in the house it's in. Guests would not be in the house. Right. That he would be peeping on his mother or. Because it was horrible. I thought it was the other way around. I. Or I like Norma was peeping on him. To see The Dirty things he's doing in there, right? That's how she knows The Dirty thing. She's doing. There you go. So I don't and that that opened up like a lot of like the psyche of like what's actually going on here. But there was just something really disturbing about thinking about because like part of it, like Norma, it wouldn't shock me if she just was like literally pull up a stool and sit next to him and watch Norman as he would bathe. But part of her knowing, like knowing that's wrong and like hiding that and repressing that part of herself as well. And and.

1:43:28 Then punishing him for her own guilts and perceptions about that. I haven't watched part 4 yet, Brian does that play into? I know that Stefano says he ignored 2 and 3. Yeah, it's been a very long time since I've seen 4, but I remember that there's some, you know, sexual elements to it, like being punished for getting an erection at one point. That's what I that's, I don't remember a whole hell of a lot about it though, so it'll be interesting to revisit it. I mean my perception of cycle 4 is that maybe reveals too much. Sure. You know that that's my sort of thought, whereas where we're having conversation rights. Yeah.

1:44:11 Right, exactly our conversation here and about first film, there's a lot of like maybe this is the case, maybe this is the case. And when those holes are filled in, I think it becomes infinitely less interesting. So but I mean, we'll we'll see when when we revisit 4. I mean, I, like I said, it's, it's been so long since I've seen it that I don't know if I can speak to it, you know, definitively right now. Yeah, I'm looking forward to like pulling that one off the shelf and watching that for the first time. It's it's a bit of a curiosity, I think for me more than a one that I ever really watch very much. So. It's a weird franchise that you have, like this one, cultural touches. It's it's like one of the most culturally relevant movies of the past 75 years in one that like you still feel it's, I mean, even in things like Seymour Skinner from The Simpsons is basically like.

1:45:06 Yeah. Is Norman. He's Norman. Yeah, right. Yeah. How like that you know, how many times like you would get like a reference of like Herman's score and the strings and like a shower scene and like different pop culture events, so. It's Wayne's World. Yeah, he's stabbing the. It it's still so relevant today. And then you get 2, which is better than it has any right to be, but it doesn't have any real lasting impact. It's really more of A and we'll you know, and we'll talk about it in a minute. When we talk about two me, it's a product if it's time in some ways. And three feels like the contractually obligated 1, like, well, 2 was a hit, we have to make three and then 4 is just dumped on the cable, right? Yeah.

1:45:51 And then it gets. Three really, you know, gets more of the slasher thing going. And I think that was studio insistence, a lot of it. There are two, two or three scenes in that. That is like, yeah, the studio probably demanded this, but you know, hey, we'll talk about that. And then you get a remake about six or seven years before remakes are really a thing, right? You know, And you get it from a director that is like coming at his like commercial and creative peak in dust. So it's a really interesting. That's how he cashes his blank check. That's wild. To me. Wild to me and to not only to not only do a remake, but to do a shot shot. Shot.

1:46:34 Remake is and when you're Gus Van Zandt, I mean a notor in your own sense, you know, is very strange and so I'm not sure I mean that is what I will find interesting to talk about with Psycho remake, to be honest, it's. Real. It's why I'm interested to. Watch. So this is like The Exorcist in terms of yes, except that much The Heretic falls on its face. Right. Yeah. Immediately out of the game. Yeah, yeah. OK, so to me the scenes with Perkins and and France are fascinating because France is at 11 and is just like. Playing it so cool. Yeah, and you just see the two, the contrast between the two and Perkins like Norman asserting himself saying like, yeah, I'll just call the police and and him when France is like, well, go ahead.

1:47:29 You know, like I was hired to work here. He's like by the state. He's like the state has no hold on me at this point, like I'm a free man. And him recognizing that in this calm way. But how that carries over, you can see how the tawdriness of what's going on, like the fact that people are going to the hotel now to fuck, that there are drugs everywhere. That like, there's something so unseemly about this Toomey character that it really gets under Norman's skin in a way that he can't process. And then when that's thrown in his face again the next day, how hard it is for him to like, keep his grip on sanity. And this kind of idea that it was like, it was my mother that did all these things.

1:48:15 I slipped into that persona. Maybe that's just a bunch of horseshit. Right. Well, I think one of my favorite lines in this movie is when he's he says, I think to Robert Lojo, he says they're they seem to be turning this into what they call an adult hotel town. That that is one of the funniest lines. The way that Perkins delivers that is is just kind of brilliant. And I just because I mean, honestly, what I mean, a motel like that out in the middle of nowhere, what else is gonna happen there in the early 80s? I'm sorry. That is like. And Logan's reaction too, is why house.

1:48:56 Yeah, place, you know. Lois like I got a room booked at 3. Your mother's right with Billy. Mother's right. Billy's mother, she's going to cover me in tangerine orange juice and. Lick it off my body. So, well, I. Like his Coteous look alike sits in the cup chair in the corner. Again, I don't want to run into Robert Lozier at the Orchie. I like how it like how it plays into kind of the what becomes the slasher trope of the guilty get punished. Like the slasher is there to punish the guilty, but I feel like, and I don't consider Norman a slasher per SE, even though knives do slash and he Franz's face does get slashed in this movie too. But the the notion that it is his sense of morality that is leading him to to punish the wickedness in people, that becomes a slasher trope for good or ill. And I like how that has kind of evolved and been played with over the years and the decades since Halloween, which is not something that Carpenter was going for, but we've talked about that before.

1:50:01 But but that that that is Norman's perspective or the perspective of Norman's mother, however we want to frame it. And I, I find that very interesting that that kind of is one of the few kind of slasher slashery elements that kind of pops up in this in this movie. I think the movie's at its best when it does its own thing and it's not leaning into the slash of tropes. And I agree. Franklin and Holland talked about they kind of had to do it because it was the time, yeah. I did. Sequence where the kids, that scene where the kids break into the basement, the cellar. Yeah, it feels a little bit tacked in there. It's a fun scene though, yeah.

1:50:42 It's a fun scene. Very Friday the 3rd. But it is like you have a pair of kids that like they break into a home, roll a joint and they're getting ready to have underage like premarital sex. It's like there's just these neons on. The rolled up mattress that was just laying down there. Who right? I can't think of any circumstance you think of like I'm thinking of Salems Lot and the Marsters home where the idea was like kids would break in and steal a trinket and run out and how hard that was. Like I can't think of like any situation where I and there's like a $5 motel, like right, right at the bottom where you're gonna like, but it's. It's the thrill, it's it's the it's not, it's not just the illicitness of like we can go to this motel and do this.

1:51:28 We could go into this place where like people got straight up merked and we can do it on the in the floor of the fruit cell. Like the mattress has been down there. How many teenagers have like fucked on that couch or on that mattress? Like how often? And Toomey says it at the beginning too, when when there was, you know, two kids that just broke in the other day and did it on the basement of your, you know, the floor of your basement. Like this happens. This is a thing that has recurs in this town because there's nothing else to do in the middle of nowhere. So why not break into the haunted house on the Hill and fuck on the floor? Yeah. You're not wrong. I get where you're coming from, but maybe at 20 that would have had like a certain illicit thrill.

1:52:11 And when you're 20, I was going to say. Yeah, when you're, when you're a teenager or a college age, like, yeah, it that is, you know, that, that, that that's a thrill. That's something. But you know, for for us in our in our 40s, we're all yeah, no, thank you. That's why they call it misspent youth. Right there, there he is. There he. Is sorry I was distracted for a minute. I was plunking down my $8 to buy the remake of Psycho. Ryan, there you go. Geez, it's worth it. I just got gonna be. Worth. I don't know if that's true, Mike. It's gonna see for. 8 bucks listeners who have the choice, you can either buy the Psycho remake on Blu-ray from Scream Factory for $8 or join our new orgy tier, which maybe we give away a copy of this disc.

1:53:01 Hey. There we go. Brian's not going to want to keep his, so we could probably give away his copy when we're watching it. Three of us are going to own it. Oh my. Goodness. We'll have. At least one to spare. That is. You know, I don't know, do I like the the tawdry thrill of like Vera Miles, like kind of like a a starlet of yesteryear Hollywood taking a kitchen knife through the face and then like a very. Clear a very. Clear like they did not have Tom Savini doing the effects on this movie. Very. Clear dummy shot. There is something kind of like about that and she was game for. That's a great shot though. I'm sorry. I don't even care that it looks super funny. It's like, it's amazing.

1:53:46 So one of the first people to see this, a rough cut of this movie was Spielberg's editor on Jaws, like Verna Fields. They sent it to her and she was she like one of the first things that she watched, last thing she watched before sadly, she would go into the hospital and she would pass from cancer. And when she was admitted to the hospital, like she was giving them notes, they sent her a sympathy card with the still of Vera Miles getting stabbed in the face with the caption like because they did not know how serious it was, they said. And it was like, cheer up, it could be worse like that is.

1:54:27 The Oh my God. Which sounds like something I would send all of you in a similar situation. Absolutely. They said they. Were. Some real Mike Snoonian. Energy there, they were mortified where they found out like that is what she was in for. But they said like it got back to them, like she had a great big laugh about it, so. She's. Every everything I have read and seen about her, the little documentary footage of her, she seemed like just an amazing person. Loved working with young film makers too. She helped Peter Bogdanovich get his start help Spielberg on Jaws. I just one of those people that the that film brat era just revered if I. Remember it incorrectly that like the when they the scene in Jaws are they actually filmed in a pool which is the boat scene when like Ben said was that her pool? Like do they not film that at her home? Am I misremembering that?

1:55:30 It was either her or his agent, Spielberg's agent, who was like a big name. I and I'm Space. Yeah. It was one of those people, yeah. Got it. OK, I. I don't, I don't know if it was hers, but it was. It was Sid Sheinberg, I want to say. This is the head of. Universe, I don't know if the head of University Studios is letting. It was something, no? Shark after M, right? Bruce. Bruce. Bruce what? I can't remember. The last OK we're getting. Well, now we're just making sure we're two hours. I should probably move on. This would have been. Getting so punchy. If I didn't. So. Mike had no Mike had to do a half an hour on Robert Lozia's orange juice commercial.

1:56:11 It wasn't 1/2 hour. It was about worth it. 5 minutes. And he kept it to 5 minutes and it was worth it. Damn it. It's my favorite. Yeah, favorite. 5 minutes. Like don't make me play it again. Your mother's right. Yes, OK, let's talk about. It with all the with all the tangents we've made, you could probably cut this to a tight. I think the tangents make it. Let's talk about Lionel Loomis's plot to drive Norman back to the to the madhouse. Because it is, yeah, one of the most unhinged plot devices. The mind. Yeah, I'd love this. Heel, But you know, I think I think as far as a twist goes, this works for me.

1:56:52 Yes, I think this is this is the thing that I think is fine. It's a little confusing, sure, but you know, to have them dressing. Up as mother and. You know, putting the notes on the wheel and all those sorts of things I think is great. You use the word over plot and I think that's really what it like. There's too much of it. It does get a little bass ackwards for a while. Sure, but I I I'm cool with it up to this point. I think where it falls apart is when you add that other element, which is Norman starts getting calls from his quote UN quote real mother.

1:57:34 I think that's where it tends to fall apart a little bit. But the idea of like Mary, like locking him in the attic, setting up all the furniture, taking all the furniture down, like breaking it back down, moving it to the fruit cellar, like cleaning up in there, all of that is kind of like, it doesn't make a lick of sense from a logistics standpoint. But God damn, that's the kind of goofiness I'm here for. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it does raise a little bit of, you know, who's doing the killing, right? Which, honestly, even at the end of this movie, I'm not always entirely sure. It it's not like Scream where you can go through and watch and figure out which one killed who when. This is not time to do that.

1:58:21 You're just like someone died. Oh no. Did Lila and Mary kill anybody? I don't think they did. I don't think they did. It's. That's the implication at the end is like the. Implication is that it is is actually someone else, but it doesn't really make sense because to me, because she's described as a big lady. Yeah, she's not a big lady at all. And I'm just kind of like what? I think that like, you know, eyewitness accounts are notoriously not the greatest sure. And if someone's coming at you with a giant knife, that person might, you know, they didn't hire like the little person who mert who like stabs armed gas. You know, it's not like.

1:59:06 No. You're getting tattoo from Fantasy Island coming in. Yeah. Which would be another amazing twist at the end of Like Ricardo Montavon. Well, part of it was like, is it going to turn out to be Robert Loja? That's the killer, right? You know, I because I don't know if I should say, but spoiler alert, the doctor is the killer in the book. You know, he's it turns out to be Norman's psychiatrist because he's worked with him so long. He gets in his head and he doesn't. He. Wants his personality off. He kind of wants it now. Yeah, there's all of that. I mean, there's a little bit of, you know, you know, Halloween remake, Robert's Rob Zombie Halloween, right?

1:59:47 Sam Loomis wanted to cash in on things and all that, but I mean, it's. Speaking of which, it's really gross that Lila and Sam get married, right? That like Sam's it's really like, that's really gross. That like Sam at. The I can tell you stories. They went through a great ordeal and all of that, you know, drove them into each other's arms. It's like, you know, Keanu Reeves and Sandy Bullock and Speed, You know, you go through all this, this dramatic experience together and you end up together. And then, of course, that didn't work out. And Jason Patrick ended up being in the sequel. But, you know, I digress.

2:00:30 I don't know where I was going with. I don't either. I've heard of instances in real life where a spouse dies and a one of their siblings is there to comfort the spouse, the surviving spouse, and they end up getting married. That happened. Isn't that thing that a customer? Lost it. Is actually legitimately? I mean, yes. Pretty sure if it's like in the Torah. If a man dies and his his spouse has not born a child, then the brother must marry the spouse in order to have a child to be reckoned unto the the deceased spouse. Yeah, that's not what's going on here though. That's. Just. Sam looking over at Lila going you'll do and I Lila. I don't think it's that.

2:01:17 I think that Lila's cute. He's like you remind me of your sister. You know your sister was hot. And there's this thing that the two of us can have experience that no one else is going to be able to understand. We're always going to have this shorthand from this thing that happened that kind of traumatized both of us. Let's heal together. And that, ultimately, is the thing that brings them together. Part of me for. John Gavin was also unable to reprise his role, right? Because he had, I'm sure, passed away by the time this movie came out, right? Chances are. Chances are. I don't I can I can look into it if you'd like. Yeah, I'm curious either. He turned it down. Or he was the ambassador to Mexico under the Reagan administration.

2:02:01 Under the Reagan administration. I'm not kidding. Like that's what he was doing. That's why he doesn't come back. I know. That's amazing. Reagan and Reagan and Gavin were friends. Yeah, I know that. So. Anyway, I don't know, maybe the stiff wasn't just what Hitchcock called. Maybe Sam Loomis also had the stiff and I don't know. Sorry, I apologize listeners, I apologize for nothing. Sorry, I just found that like I did wrong task and then. MM, I'm about to tell you something really funny. Do you? Do you want to know what John Gavin's last acting credit was? What? Fantasy Island. Love it, love it all comes back to Ricardo.

2:02:42 Circle. It's all time everything. Everything is connected. This is fantastic, Lila recruiting her daughter Mary into this scheme. Like, I'm trying to imagine what it was like growing up in that household and all the stories that she was filled with. And you need to avenge your dead aunt who you never even met. Like how? And I think, like, that's why I think it's kind of great that Mary pretty quickly has a lot of sympathy for Norman and tries to like, extricate herself from this scheme this quickly. Feels like she was probably even married at or named after her aunt, right? Mary. Mary, Yeah. Well, Mary is the name of the character in the novel, but there was a Mary Crane living in Phoenix in 1960 or 59 when they were shooting the film. So for legal reasons, they changed it to Marion Crane. Yeah.

2:03:36 Gotcha SO. OK. But it is a great and just like thinking of all that goes into it, like having to make the phone calls, leave the notes, do a little dress up, all of that. Like setting up mother's room and then like rolling everything up again. I don't know how that timeline even works out, but it doesn't. But yeah. Yeah, what Lila, she doesn't want justice. She wants vengeance. Because when Mary's like it couldn't be Norman who killed this this kid, because this young man because like he was locked up in the attic. I know he was locked up. I put him there. When that comes into play, like Lila's reaction is who gives a flying fuck?

2:04:21 Like it just want him back in the which I would have given a lot for for here verifile. It's like drop an F bomb in the yeah while she's ripping like a giant Virginia Slim just. Yes. Yeah. She's just. You know, old Hollywood behind the scenes, I'm sure. Was just. Incredible. She's not like ridiculously old when she makes this movie. She kind of looks it and maybe they age her up a little bit, but man, you see. Haircut is not doing her any. Favors not that is not doing her. No one's haircut in the 80s was doing them any favors. You ever see there's like these videos of like high school classes in the 80s and they all look like they're RH, right? Just.

2:05:05 Yeah, I know. It's crazy. Fucking nuts. Yeah, and we are very far away from our teen years. But I do, you know, like I can see it being like The Who the murderer actually is because like she kills like a a scared kid who slips and falls on the log, the coal trying to get out. And she murders Lila, who's. Lila. And she murders like Dennis Franz, who's like coked out of his mind and not expecting anything. So there's not like a huge body count. And she has the element of surprise the other deaths. Like. Mary is shot to death by the sheriff. Doctor Raymond is killed on accident like Mary accidentally stabs him and then you have like a great shot of him falling over the. That with the knife, the.

2:05:52 Knife that he just that he just happens to hit the banister is like kind of makes me laugh. Yeah, that's one of those little reminds me of like that's, that's a Friday the 13th kill right there stuck into a. That's how you can that you can really see like, Oh yeah, this is an early 80s horror movie. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. However, I mean, do we reveal the twist too far? Let's go a couple more minutes. We'll end with the last part of it because I want to say like, OK, maybe the last thing I have is like, two things can be true. Norman is not responsible for these murders, however, right? Norman should not be out at this point.

2:06:33 He is literally telling people in the in the diner, my mother left me a note. My mother is still alive. It's my mom. And everyone is like, Norman, you're fine. They dig up the grave, which is something which is something you can do in movies, I think a lot easier again than in real life. Yes, Yeah, Yeah. Well, it's a small town. It's a small town, just hey. And they're even talking. Grave diggers come out here. They're even talking like, normally we need like, authorization from the coroner and stuff like that. That had the subtitles on. That's what they were saying. You're right. Yeah. Robert Loja, your mother's right. Another Back to the Future. Is not alive, Norman.

2:07:14 Aside from Dean Cundy, that brief scene where he tails when Doctor Raymond tails Lila, that is the downtown setting of Back to the Future like. Hill Valley. Kingston Falls. Very, very neat. You mentioned the laugh line. The line that gets me is when Norman thinks his mother is in the fruit cellar and he's like standing guard outside it and he's like, they took away all my memories except for the cheese sandwiches that. Is cheese sandwiches. Amazing. He does love cheese sandwiches. Between. The authenticity of Perkins's performance there keeps me from laughing at that line, but I, I. Absolutely. I think on rewatch you would laugh.

2:07:54 I mean. Between, you're probably right. Between the Psycho films and like Thurman Merman in Bad Santa, the kid in Bad Santa, like Santa just get done so dirty in movies. So yeah, he Norman at this point, like clearly he's if he hasn't snapped yet, he's going to. And I think that's like kind of the beauty of this film is like, and I mentioned Tucker and Dale, like all of this murders going on around him. And it's not that he's oblivious to it, but he's not responsible for it, but he's like basically saying, please lock me back up. All right, Brian, let's talk. We we get the Mary is like shot to death by the sheriff because you know all the.

2:08:38 Murders get pinned on her. They get pinned on her in the mom, and so that's going to be like Lila's fate at the end of this as well. She's going to be remembered as like another mass murderer, which is like kind of sad. She married her dead sister's beau and she's a mass murderer. Not quite the legacy you're going for. Take the L. No, it is tragedy. I wish the film ended here or you end with a shot of Norman that you do. The final shot we get is incredible. Put that here. But as much as I wish the movie ended here, I kind of do love this last scene. The scene is great.

2:09:24 That's the. Thing it's. Wonderful implications of it that are awful. Yeah, it's sort of. It's as bad as the sister twist in Halloween 2 in my. Opinion. It was like. OK, OK, OK, maybe. What if you ambiguously end with Did Norman do it? No, we're going to have little old lady Mrs. Spool, the waitress from. The owner Diner Diner. The owner of the diner, yes, she's sweet. Little old lady is gonna come in and have a seat and have a little supper with Norman sandwiches and milk, right?

2:10:06 But. Toasted cheese. Not cheese, cheese. Toast. Cheese, which is bizarre. Yeah. Is it OK? Sorry, sorry. No, you're right. It is. It is. I mean, that just proves these crazy right there. I'm I'm going to start calling toasted cheese sandwiches. Now please don't. Yeah. Please, please don't. It's happening anyway, but she lays out the fat, this idea that, oh, you know what? I'm your real mother, Norman. And Misses Bates was my sister. And I got sent away when I was young after I had you and your and my sister Norma raised you as her own. So Norman, you killed the wrong woman. I don't know what it all, but he's like, OK. But the implication, OK.

2:10:53 What this comes down to is Norman has to kill his mother, has to be dead, no matter who she is, whether she had anything to do with his life or not, right? So he just whacks her up that side the head with a shovel, which is amazing, I want to say. Gives her the poison tea and then that's not enough. He's got a smack her in the head with a shovel. More movies need to end with old people getting hit in the head with a shovel. And then writhing on the floor as they as they breathe. Think about the end of Sinners, right? You got Buddy Guy in the club. Yeah, Michael B Jordan and they walk into the club, they offer buddy guys character like eternal life. He says no Michael B Jordan wax Buddy Guy over the head with a shovel in Sinners ends there.

2:11:45 Then it's beating 1 battle after another for best picture. OK. Seven stars. Exactly. Every movie needs to end like. That, yeah, you know, and The thing is, it's, it's I I'm so torn because I actually really like this sequence. It's really well filmed, like it's really well executed. The performances are great. But it doesn't make a lot of sense why he kills her. No, to me, it's sort of like, OK, my mother, if you're my mother, my mother has to be dead. So I'm gonna kill. It's just out of the blue. I mean, I, I think, I think ending with a little bit of ambiguity probably would have pissed off in the studio, but I mean.

2:12:28 Well, and you can't make another sequel if Norman's not a killer. Right. But it just kind of muddies the waters of the lore so much to have it be this just essentially, I'm sorry, random woman. Even if she was Norma's sister, he had, she had nothing to do with Norman's life other than giving birth. She had no interaction with him. What? Did not even know she. Knows history of abuse. Abuse. There's no history of, you know, this tyrannical person, unless it's because it's the one that gave. Him up to that abuse. Right. Well, that could be. That's the only. Thing I could possibly think of. You get the feeling that he is going to be doing what we would call some transference there. So the end when he's carrying her up the stairs and you hear Mother's voice and she's like.

2:13:17 Yes. Screeching at him to like, open up the hotel. How are we supposed to live that he's just going to transfer all of those issues from Norma onto missus spool that? She is the. Person that's done this to him, you get the idea that it doesn't really, like you said, Brian, doesn't really matter. Anybody will do. Yeah, yeah. And and I, I struggle with that a bit. I do think it's a twist too far, yeah. Yeah. It's maybe not as damaging as the sister twist in Halloween where you supply a motive to Michael Myers, who's supposed to be pure evil. But because Norman does have a motive.

2:13:57 Yeah, he, I mean, despite what Billy Loomis says in Scream, he does have a motive. It's it's, you know, this, this repression and all of there's a reason. I don't know if it's a motive, but it's a reason for for him to be a killer. I do think Psycho 3 went cons and again, I think they're kind of like actually and. It does and it's and it's sort of wrenches it back to where it was, which I know, I know, which is a spoiler alert, but it's but even but in wrenching it back, it's kind of annoying too. So it's just one of these these things that you know, because basically in Psycho 3 they were the writer was given the demand that you make Missus Bates's mother again, which, you know.

2:14:44 You can easily do you can just say like this woman was also like not of she invented this fantasy that she's the mother. It is. And originally like, you know, there's obviously there's like this close up of like the tea canister, like Chekhov's tea, which is in there a couple times, right? Yeah. To me, the implication that like, this house has not been lived in for 20 years and this he poisoned his mother when he was 12. So for 30 years this tea has been poisoned. It's a bit silly, but that was going to be the original ending. Like she was going to die from poison. And as an audience member, I think maybe that's what you were expecting because of the way it's shot. And then you get that whack with the shovel and. Then he just comes in with a shovel out of nowhere. Yeah.

2:15:30 It's a it's an awesome scene. That is, that's the struggle with it. You know, it's. It's absurd, but it what's damn it like and that those are two things we have to hold intention. Yeah. As the audience, right so. I do love the final shot, which is Norman in silhouette standing outside of the of of the home and he's like looming so large and it's framed for it's basically it's like the poster of Psycho or one of them, but it's a shot that's never used and it just becomes this iconic shot here. It's gorgeous. It's a great job. Yeah, it's a it's a great moment.

2:16:11 The filmmaking in this is really just incredible. Like I, I have it in my notes, just like the the frequent and effective use of like Dolly zoom in this like paying homage to Vertigo, particularly that last one of Mary when it kind of like flies up the ceiling is, is really like across the like door jam is really, really amazing. Like that one. I, my jaw dropped when I saw that one like this. This film is, like you said, like better than it has any right to be. And so I recant my statement about the psycho sequel sucking. At least one of them is good. I, I reserve my right to judge the others until I've seen them. This is my penance. Thus saith the Lord.

2:16:52 A couple little a couple little notes, some of them like there are a couple shots very reminiscent of Hitchcock. You have that overhead shot at the top of the landing. Franklin does a brief cameo and he's the one playing the arcade game when Norman first walks in to the diner. And the reflection of young Norman in the door is Osgood Perkins in that scene. Couple little notes there. Yeah, Psycho 2, like it's a lot of fun and. It is. It is. If listeners, if you haven't watched it, if you've ignored it for any reason, it. Like I had.

2:17:33 It has that feel of an early 80s horror movie. It's not quite a slasher, kind of like, again, the reveal takes cues from Friday the 13th. You know, I know, Steven, you mentioned at the top, like, we're going to do the replay of what happened in the last movie, which was a very 70s and 80s thing in sequels. Because home movies, the home media is not really a thing unless the film's on television. You're not getting to watch it over and over. But also the reveal of Missus Spool at the end feels very Missus Voorhees in Friday. It does. It does. It's like. So. Sudden. Kind of. I've been here the whole time.

2:18:14 A friend of the Christies. Yeah, kind of love it. All right. Just I wish he had said that. Hi, Norman, I'm a friend of the Christies. Which do you think? Like the Friday the 13th score is so reminiscent of Bernard Herman's score. Psycho. Yeah, everything. Is such like that? It's all a circle. It's all. Circle everything is old as new again. All right, gentlemen, we've done it. You did it, guys. Yes, let's let's talk about where y'all can find everybody. Steven, what's going on? Disenfranchised. We're on hiatus right now because my life is crazy. So we're taking this is this is pretty much all I got going on right now. So but you can follow me at Chewy Walrus on Blue Sky and Letterbox.

2:18:57 Come get you some, I guess. The takes are tepid and lukewarm. The water is fine. Come on in. But yeah, disenfranchised on hiatus until further notice. I think Tucker's still gonna do like a couple one off episodes, so the feed will still be open. Hoping to get Tucker on next week for Psycho 3. It's a movie he really enjoys. So hopefully we'll have a little disenfranchised reunion on Pod and Pendulum. But yeah, that's that. And Wells U is also kind of on an indefinite hiatus until again, I can figure my shit out. That's that's really what it comes down to. Steven got to figure shit out. And on top of that, I'm probably going to be auditioning for something in a couple weeks. So maybe life will get even crazier. Like that? Yeah. Brian, what do you got? All right, talk about holy terror. Well.

2:19:39 Please yes. Holy Terrors podcast has finally launched after much discussion. So we we have a few in the bank. So we've we're not necessarily going to release them in the order we recorded them because there are things coming out that that would fit good here. So we're doing a little bit of that. We have our our. Sort of pre prelude episode, I call it our invocation Very, very is is available where we talk a little bit about the show, a little bit about ourselves and give some ideas of some movies that we hope to cover on the show.

2:20:19 And our first episode on Heretic from 2023 is out. And boy, that was a good one to start with. I think we we had a good time talking with our guest, TJ Tranchell on that, who is former formerly of the LDS church and was able to speak to all of that with some nuance, which we appreciated. And yeah, so yeah, Holy Terrors is going to be on. It's on Instagram and Threads at Holy Terrorspodcast. It's on Blue Sky at Holy Terrors. I have a Facebook page, but I'm not. You're right. I don't know. I don't know. No, you're right. Don't know what to do about that. And so, yeah, I hope we get some growth and get some listeners and because I think it.

2:21:07 It's a really good show, you guys. Yep. Well, thank you. Strong recommend. As soon as like Ariel let us know that your show was out, not Brian. By the way, Brian is just listen. Listeners like as much as we joke and I think we all understand, we kid. Brian is like the most modest person I might know, right? It's Ariel who tells everyone on the team slack. By the way, Brian's show is up. You should listen. By which point I had already downloaded and listened to the episode and shared it across all my social media platforms. So I let my social following, No, But I didn't let the pod pendulum crew. No. Yeah. It's also on the old Movies for Life feed, so if you subscribe to Movies for Life and it's still in there for you, it's switched over, but all of the Movies for Life episodes are remaining that way. That's why we chose to do that, because we didn't want to lose those.

2:22:02 And so we're making it sort of Season 2 of that is Holy Terrors. Which is also a great listen. Your Eyes wiped shut episode in particular is great. You have one on Rocky. We had a lot of fun with. That kind of a clown, but. Amazing. So that was a blast. That was a very fun show. We also have one on Citizen Kane featuring. Who'd you get on for that? One guy I don't know. So. Yeah, found that real. Jerk. Listeners, you kid. Listeners, you can find me at Mike's Union on Blue Sky. I don't know what everyone else's feed looks like. Like I, I'm trying to curate it down to not eliminate political discussion there, but to like reduce it because I agree with 99% of my feed. There's just too much of it and I just want more. Like I need a.

2:22:51 Little bit of escapism. My wife and. I were talking today like. So overwhelming. What are we going to be doing like when ICE comes in near us very soon and I'm like, we'll be in the streets. Well, I will be. My wife is an immigrant, so she it will not be, but like I'll be there because I worked in that town for six years protecting kids. Right. Yeah, so we'll see. We'll see what happens to me because I have a big mouth anyway. Wait, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is new tonight. Hold on, you can't just drop that at the end of the episode. Holy shit you. I know, but you can follow me there. Follow the show at Pod and Pendulum on Blue Sky and Instagram.

2:23:35 And again, promotion has slowed down. Just because it feels weird to be promoting it. So it just feels. It just feels. Gross. I understand that person makes sense so. Odd. So it's. An odd time to try and grow an audience, right? At the same time, we need not necessarily this show. I'm not saying this is the show that we we need art, we need film, we need music. We need absolutely. That is the thing. And we need this stuff that is created by humans. Please. Yes, thank you. Because I mean, we need to, I feel like more it's so important when there's just AI flooding everything. To have actual human response to things is so vital.

2:24:19 And just, I'm serious, don't let them take whoever they are. Take that away from us, please. So it is, it's a wild time to be alive and not always, not always in the best ways, but it's really important that we have things to look forward to that we. Like Psycho 3 Psycho. 3 next week you Brian, you said it best. I think the only person who could say it any better than Brian. Whoops. The only person who could say it any better than Brian. Oop. I thought you could play both together but. You can't so well guess what's just. End with that.

2:25:02 No, I'm not. Your mother's right. Folks, your mother's. Right. Join our $8 tier for the orgy tier. We will. We love. Y'all if I get a free copy of the Psycho remake? Hey. Come for the orgy, stay for the remake. That is it. Everybody, have a great week. We're back next time. Brian, Steven, thank you again for putting up with me. Love you dude, take care. Everybody. Fantastic. We'll let the intro music play us out. Yeah.